I ask this because my friend Jim took his Mth Engine with BCR inside to the MILwaukee Lionel Club . His engine is a proto 1 with BCR .
The track he was on was using a new Lionel ZW-L transformer . his engine would not move . His engine works at home on a Z-4000!
anyone hear of issues ?
Thanks in advance .
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PLEASE NOTE ! I am not BASHING LIONEL ! I have MTH & LIONEL PRODUCTS ! I do not want to damage any of my current engines .
I do not bash any company as a whole . all companies have a lemon or two !
Conventional running? DCS?
Jim was was running conventional at the club & home . His k4 is a proto 1 engine.
I on the other hand was thinking of using the Lionel ZW-L as my power source for DCS .
now you know why I was asking the question . two birds with one question& answer ?
I don't know MTH details, but the Z4000 is a sine wave, made up of pieces, but a sine wave. The ZW-L is a chopped sine wave. So there are some fundamental differences in the shape of the AC waveform.
However, I would be surprised why it would not run with a ZW-L. We need some input from some Proto 1 runners.
I don't have any Proto 1. Just Proto 2 stuff from MTH. I run Legacy and DCS off a ZW-L with no issues. Just for FYI.
Proto-1 is a MTH adaptation of QSIndustries electronic sound and reverse units. All QSI products were designed for Lionel Electrical Operating Standards (L.E.O.S.) - in brief, postwar transformers. As CJACK/Chuck posted, they require pure sine wave AC current. MTH designed Z4000 transformers for them and even included a PROGRAMMING button.
As "chopped" sine wave transformers [the top "wave" of AC current is chopped off] were introduced in the 1990's, customers noticed that their locomotives wouldn't work with them. QSI manuals listed a page of compatible and incompatible transformers.
MTH designed PS-2 and PS-3 command systems that are more tolerant of "chopped" sine wave transformers, as David posted above.
The term "Proto-1" was coined to distinguish those locomotives from PS-2, then from PS-3. "Proto-1" was not printed on MTH boxes. MTH called that system "Proto-Sound" and included the QSI herald of a yellow lightning bolt inside a black rectangle on the box end flap.
Proto-Sound and Proto-1 locomotives should be operated only by transformers with "pure" AC sine waves.
They may power up with other transformers but interrupting current to make them move can damage the circuit boards. Jim is lucky that his engine still runs.
I'm glad this topic comes up occasionally. Proto-Sound / PS-1 is designed for conventional operation with pure sine wave transformers. PS-2 and PS-3 have been around for years, and someone may assume that PS-1 works the same way. It doesn't.
I have run several Proto 1 engines with BCR units on my ZWl equipped layout with no issues.
Guys, save Readingfan as required reading. He just did a great job on this post. We all knew the early MTH engines as Protosounds. The term PS1 was born here on the forum. Today, MTH uses the term in house.
As a repair person, I have seen people bring in PS1 locomotives and complain they can not get them to run with the DCS system. Guys, if you have questions you can ask here and hear from guys like Readingfan or PLEASE read a booklet if it came with your engine.
PS1 (Protosounds) is a good system and king of the road when it came out. I still enjoy running PS1 locomotives after working on them. I always preach to owners to use a new green battery. Any PS1 engine out there should have the old (very old) white battery discarded.
To Marty F
1. I know you do not run Proto 1 engines with Dcs !
2. My friend jim could not run on the Milwaukee lionel club using a Lionel ZW-L with his MTH Proto 1 engine conventionally .
3. Jim & I both wondered if there was a logical reason for # 2
4. We both know about sine wave issues out there .
I run all my PS-1 locomotives with my ZW-C without issues. Also they run fine with my CW-80s.
So, more detail is needed at your attempt to run the PS-1 locomotive at the club. I ask the following due to my personal experience with running many PS-1 equipped locomotives with these chopped wave transformers that other keeps saying is impossible or problematic.
1) When you said it wouldn't run, what exactly did it do? PS-1 locomotives behave differently depending on the issue they are having. See #2 and 3 below.
2) Did it startup normal with sounds and the double ding, and then just sit there and ding more when you pressed the direction button? Remember, voltage must be below 10 volts for the locomotive to leave reset. If the track voltage was too high, it'll stay in the reset state and only ding after each direction button push. Also, this is what the locomotive will do if it decides to give you issues with a chopped wave transformer. The solution is simple, you must have a lighted car (Caboose or passenger car work well.) in the same electrical block as the locomotive. This is how I run all my PS-1 locomotives trouble free with the CW-80. Another way to tell if a lighted car will help is if once the locomotive is running, the horn/whistle will randomly blow or seem stuck on.
3) Did it ding and then not play any sounds when power was applied? This is caused by the electronics going into a safe/protect mode because they think the transformer is incompatible or may damage the boards. They can do this even if there is no harm that can come to them. And example of this is if you try running them with the old TMCC PowerMasters, which the ZW-L is kind of like. A solution that I learned from gunrunnerjohn is to place a certain kind of cap across the outputs and then the locomotive will function correctly. I have also learned that if you lock the locomotive into a direction using a different transformer, then it'll work just fine with the PowerMaster, but as soon as you unlock it, it'll go back into reset, then sense the PowerMaster's output and go into protect again.
4) Once power was applied, did you let it sit for 30 seconds before trying to enter forward? Needed for the BCR it fully charge and allow the locomotive to work correctly.
5) Are you sure it was on a track powered by a ZW-L? See #3 above.
6) Were there any other cars or locomotives on the same electrical block as the locomotive in question? Classic way to see if the track is getting power as it should is if other powered items in the same block function as they should. Also see #2 above.
ReadingFan posted:Proto-Sound and Proto-1 locomotives should be operated only by transformers with "pure" AC sine waves.
They may power up with other transformers but interrupting current to make them move can damage the circuit boards. Jim is lucky that his engine still runs.
I didn't realize there was a potential to damage a Protosound engine using a ZW-L or other chopped sine wave transformer. I did realize that it's operation was spotty.
Ditto MartyE. I've experienced occasional spotty operation (eg. whistles sounding automatically) using a ZW-C when a friend brought over PS-1 locos but didn't realize the potential for damage.
PS-2 with 3 volt and 5 volt boards, A. O. K.!
Only issue I have seen is some times running conventional via Cab 2 remote the locomotive will get stuck in on direction. Shut the power down and start back up and all is fine.
No Proto ones on the layout, weren't they all scrapped in the age of steam?
Sinclair,
Very good explanation of what actually happens with a P1 engine and some transformers, as you indicated the easiest way to over come these problems, is with a lighted Caboose, run with the P1 engine. One of the reasons for using my old KW & ZW transformers on certain loops of my Christmas layout is to run P1 engines and street cars without problem. The inner most loop on my 2nd level was set up to run the Hallmark/Lionel LC and the P1 Pittsburgh, Pa street Car I am looking to acquire, with out having to worry about problems caused by my newer transformers. That inner loop is powered by an old ZW Transformer.
Well done sir, very nice explanation of the problem that newer transformers can cause with some engines and street Cars. If you are running any P1 engines or P1 Street Cars get your self and old KW or ZW transformer, you will not need to worry about running problems.
J Daddy,
Got to admit all my P1 engines are gone now, however I can not find a P2 Pittsburgh Street Car, with Lou's Turtle Creek/Pitcarin announcements in it, and according to Guns and Barry, the P1 announcements can not be upgraded to work in a P2 Street Car. So the old stone age P1 is all I can acquire at this time, and my old KW & ZW transformers work just fine with all P1 equipment.
You probably don't run Tin Plate either do you!
Hay Stone Age Steam, I resemble that remark!
PCRR/Dave
Proto One Locomotives were a stem of frustration of engines that unfortunately cost allot of money at the time, only to become a shelf princess at a later date due to the electronics.... " no offense to anyone, just comizerating".
On the contrary. I still have my prewar American flyer set I grew up with as a kid and I enjoy running it. 
Looks just like this one but I have the silver / stainless steel cars with grey tops....
That's a good-looking set!
What I have found is that the very early MTH Proto-1 engines 1994-1995 ranged in subtle differences in the design of the system (as you'll find from engine to engine) and are all mostly only truly compatible with pure sine power. Of this original early era I have found the following differences and behaviors: 1) The earliest of Proto-1 releases (UP Challenger, Southern Crescent Limited, Scale ALCO PAs etc.) w/Battery Back-Up System and Switch... This version allows the engine to actually run without a Battery installed, but sounds will always cut out with power cycles and sounds will never shut off with a battery installed unless you switch the battery off or the battery dies. (There is an on/off switch for the battery unlike later PS1 releases). The whistle and bell activation will be VERY inconsistent on a chopped transformer and some functions are **** near impossible to pull off without a pure sine power pack (like firing the coupler consistently). You can unlock and cycle the engine with the chopped power packs with/without a battery installed and with/without the battery switch on or off. Whistle and Bell both fire the whistle and bell can only be activated by either button in Neutral. There is no RESET 18. 2) The next iteration of Proto-1 boards (Premier Examples : UP Big Blow Gas Turbine, Santa Fe Northern, Empire State Hudson, Pennsy K-4, Atlantic Coast Line F3s) work just like the vastly improved successor forcing you to have a good battery in at all times and is improved and less touchy with response to whistle and bell commands than the predecessor mentioned above. Both sounds can be button-designated. RESET 18 is an option. Postwar power packs, Z-4000s and other Pure Sine Power are your only bets at getting these engines to unlock from Reset/Neutral and to get into motion. With any Chopped Power Pack (Z-1000, CW-80, ZW-L) the engines will never unlock from reset and get moving. They can be run properly by a chopped pack if jumped from a pure pack after unlocking from reset (why you would risk doing this I have no idea, but I did it just to prove a theory and it works). 3) It isn't until you get into the 1996-later era Proto-1 engines that you have a PS1 board that is more refined than ever before and will respond to almost all decent Chopped Power Packs as well as Pure Sine Packs. These are unfortunately also the most prone to scrambling due to the old white batteries being left in while powered up or not having the battery situation properly cared for ahead of time and are what gave Protosound by QSI a bad reputation due to the battery-related issues which arose from misunderstandings about proper maintenance. Earlier models from 1996-early 1997 might still be a bit sensitive at times and exhibit odd behaviors like squealing the brakes at all sorts of random times (interpreting a brief DC offset that never happens, but is a symptomatic response to a heavily alternating "chopped" power environment), or they may possibly even deselect. The later 1997-end of Proto-1 board offerings seem to be the ones that have it right all the way around. They really perform well and respond properly to almost all decent AC packs of all kinds. I've even had the last generation work mostly well on the horrible CW-80 (but I still don't recommend that pack with any Proto-1 because it can screw them up - same goes for the ZW-C). Unfortunately, this last generation of Proto-1 boards was never remembered or talked about for their solid performance since the reputation was tarnished by all the flaws of those that came before.
PS1 is actually a great and reliable system if you know which iteration you have and how to properly care for it.
I'd suggest reading George Brown's review some time ago on the new Lionel ZW-L and pure vs. chopped sine wave. It was in two parts as I recall, about the same time the new transformer was released.
Paul Kallus posted:I'd suggest reading George Brown's review some time ago on the new Lionel ZW-L and pure vs. chopped sine wave. It was in two parts as I recall, about the same time the new transformer was released.
Is that a forum member? I did a search and could not find anything. Any link possible?
Well as someone who has been there and got the Tee-shirt, had two mid 1995/96 diesel MTH models with "Proto Sound." Back in this period the MTH system designed by QSI was officially called "Proto Sound" not Proto Sound-2. As READINGFAN stated it was designed to/with L.E.O.S. In fact as I understood back then QSI actually used a Lionel ZW.
Now my KW needed service (rollers and new cord) so bought a MRC duel 270. These two diesel models would NOT run. Saw an ad in OGR at the time from QSI about the problem and fix. For my Premier SD45 had to send entire model back to QSI for the fix. When at came time for my AS-616 only had to send the boards back. In both case they fixed them to run with the MRC. As I recall QSI charged about $40/50 for the service. This "FIXED" PS became known as Proto Sound -1. One thing though, when running any/all my PS-1's there was an audible hum.
Ron
I’m not sure why this three-year-old thread was revived, though Ddotcdot hit the nail on the head with his reply.
My MTH PS1 K4s (20-3018-1) from 1996 still won’t run on the club’s ZW-Ls, but works fine on the club’s Z-4000. None of the tricks (including running a string of cars with incandescent bulbs in them) made a difference, as was discussed in a followup thread about a week later in January 2016.
This PS1 loco is the only one I have that behaves this way when powered by chopped-wave output transformers. Since I have a Z-4000 option at the club and at home, I decided not to upgrade it to PS3. But it was a learning experience three years ago.
Jim R. posted:I’m not sure why this three-year-old thread was revived, though Ddotcdot hit the nail on the head with his reply.
My MTH PS1 K4s (20-3018-1) from 1996 still won’t run on the club’s ZW-Ls, but works fine on the club’s Z-4000. None of the tricks (including running a string of cars with incandescent bulbs in them) made a difference, as was discussed in a followup thread about a week later in January 2016.
This PS1 loco is the only one I have that behaves this way when powered by chopped-wave output transformers. Since I have a Z-4000 option at the club and at home, I decided not to upgrade it to PS3. But it was a learning experience three years ago.
Thanks. I revived to report the differences in my findings with different generations of PS1 boards since there is so much confusion out there, especially with customers who walk into my shop with preserved PS1 engines that either never left the box for 20 years or sat on their display - and suddenly they want to pull them out and play but don’t understand why some won’t play on their new power packs and others behave strangely etc.
After going through and servicing hundreds of PS1 locos from every single catalog release - I’ve learned and discovered a lot about them.
Your K4 simply hates chopped power packs and falls into the second iteration of PS1 I described. Find and swap in a later PS1 board and it will run on just about anything, including TIU Variable Remote Taps (which are heavily chopped). ....Your current board likely has the soldered leads so be prepared to due some slight rewiring if you do swap in a last gen board with the sockets. - I did this for my Santa Fe 2903 Northern and UP Gas Turbine #5 when I owned those. Never had a problem with either after that.
Jim R. posted:I’m not sure why this three-year-old thread was revived, though Ddotcdot hit the nail on the head with his reply.
My MTH PS1 K4s (20-3018-1) from 1996 still won’t run on the club’s ZW-Ls, but works fine on the club’s Z-4000. None of the tricks (including running a string of cars with incandescent bulbs in them) made a difference, as was discussed in a followup thread about a week later in January 2016.
This PS1 loco is the only one I have that behaves this way when powered by chopped-wave output transformers. Since I have a Z-4000 option at the club and at home, I decided not to upgrade it to PS3. But it was a learning experience three years ago.
Te original 1995/96 MTH/QSI systems were designated as "Proto Sound" not Proto Sound-1. The 1's were after the QSI fix/modification.
Bobby Ogage posted:All of the caveats regarding various transformers and Proto Sound locomotives is enough to drive one to 3 fingers of Kentucky Bourbon.
Is there a universal transformer that runs all of MTH's electronic systems and all of Lionel's electronic systems?
:-D Yes. Get yourself an MTH Z-4000.
DdotCdot posted:Bobby Ogage posted:All of the caveats regarding various transformers and Proto Sound locomotives is enough to drive one to 3 fingers of Kentucky Bourbon.
Is there a universal transformer that runs all of MTH's electronic systems and all of Lionel's electronic systems?
:-D Yes. Get yourself an MTH Z-4000.
And a KW and post war ZW!
I use a pair of MTH Z-4000's and MTH and Lionel engines run fine! Have both DCS and Legacy installed and operating. BTW, pay attention to Marty F's recommendations on batteries!
This may be mentioned somewhere above, but some early PS1/QSI MTH locos will not run on modern MTH transformers, either. It seems to vary; I imagine that the PS1 design was evolving. I know this from experience, back when I was messing with conventional. Everything would run on an old PW transformer, wave forms and all that neing what they are.
I have a new ZW-L (purchased in November 2018). I have successfully run three Protosound (PS1) equipped locos. A Railking Daylight from 1997 (w/new MTH green battery), a Premier F3 from 1997 (From the SF El Capitan set w/BCR), and a Premier NH EP-5 (w/BCR) from 1999. No issues at all with start-up, horn/whistle sounds, bell, or utilizing the reset features.
D500 posted:This may be mentioned somewhere above, but some early PS1/QSI MTH locos will not run on modern MTH transformers, either. It seems to vary; I imagine that the PS1 design was evolving. I know this from experience, back when I was messing with conventional. Everything would run on an old PW transformer, wave forms and all that neing what they are.
That’s because those newer MTH controllers Z-500, 750, 1000 and Z-Controller are all chopped sine wave. The only MTH pure sine variable power pack is the Z-4000. MTH TIU Variable taps are also chopped.
Its not the brand. It’s the way the transformers are designed. The only chopped ones that work well with later PS1 1996- and that I haven’t had additional issues with are the great but little known Lionel RS-1, the GW-180, the TPCs, and the MTH Z-1000 aka Z-Controller.
I have not yet had a chance to audition a ZW-L with anything of the later PS1 chopped compatible era so I can not advise.
The original old Z-500* (rheostat), Z-750* (rheostat), CW-80, ZW-C and a number of other Lionel cheapies usually result in major issues or no functionality at all with all things PS1. Z-500 and Z-750 brick sets now come with the Z-Controller (which is the same thing as the Z-1000 Controller), so you won't have issues with those lower power bricks as long as you are using the redesigned Z-Controller with them as they come packaged from the factory today.
yankspride4 posted:I have a new ZW-L (purchased in November 2018). I have successfully run three Protosound (PS1) equipped locos. A Railking Daylight from 1997 (w/new MTH green battery), a Premier F3 from 1997 (From the SF El Capitan set w/BCR), and a Premier NH EP-5 (w/BCR) from 1999. No issues at all with start-up, horn/whistle sounds, bell, or utilizing the reset features.
Great to hear. I hope to try a ZW-L one day, but I guarantee it won’t operate that second iteration of PS1 I mentioned earlier. The only power pack that will do it all no matter who made it and when, safely by design, and with plenty of power to go around is the Z-4000.
I run my railroad with a Z4000, but I only run MTH locomotives and they run well.
Dave45681 posted:
Cool. Never saw those. I think the source of the issue is only addressed here now though, and although it is touched on once in “thread 1” we actually go into detail here.
TL;DR ...... If you have a PS1 engine it may fall into one of 4 eras of PS1 board designs not differentiated on the box or online or in the catalogs (the first two gens overlap a bit: 1 and 2meg. The last two gens are both iterations of 4meg design). PS1 boards were constantly evolving, constantly being perfected during their reign from 1994-2000. There are 1meg, 2meg, early 4meg and later (final) 4meg boards.
First - from 1994-1995 You’ll find 1 or 2 megs - behaviors will include not leaving reset at start up with chopped wave transformers, occasional inconsistencies with firing whistle bell and other sounds, some may have battery back-up on/off switch (very early concept) and there can be oddball behavior with chopped wave transformers, so in a nutshell - use a Postwar or a Z-4000 transformer with these. OR - swap the old board and chip with a later 4meg PS1 board and your problems are over. You can then run with the decent chopped wave packs and are keeping it all original.
Next you have the 1996-1997 - early 4meg era with vast improvements and ability to leave reset on chopped transformers without issues. (Some of these engines’ top board and chip fall on the “Deselect List” - it’s out there, look it up. Simply can be solved with a top board and chip swap.)
Finally you have the late 1997-end - later 4meg era that got it all right (functions reliably like QSI’s QS-2+ System). Same as the above and more refined with greater response to powerpacks. These are the boards to get and replace previous generation boards with if you can and want to keep your PS1 as a PS1 and not upgrade it to another system.
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