Background Sound Modules.

I've been thinking about these quite a bit since I discovered they exist.  I believe I will add them to my layout as they provide "depth".

Basil posted:

I've been thinking about these quite a bit since I discovered they exist.  I believe I will add them to my layout as they provide "depth".

Hello: Basil

You will be amazed of the sound quality coming from the sound module.
I sure was.

Ed-RRR......

I used their horn with an IR trigger at the grade crossing for a fire station layout (a layout that my fire station puts up during the holiday). The commuter train they run around the layout doesn't have sound although Lionel makes one with remote controlled sounds now. It made sense at the time.  I'm thinking about doing the same on my future permanent layout too. I almost never controlled the passenger line on my original layout; it just ran. With this, at least something is warning the crossings when I'm not at the controls!

I can attest to the sound quality of the horns and the seaside one -I don't remember which one I used. It was really easy to set up too. When coming from inside a structure, the sound isn't overpowering either. It's appropriately distant. Everything they make without actual talking is probably going to be pretty nice.

RE: Speaker Polarity Connections.

Special Note:
Bigger the speaker = Better the sound quality.
I use a 4" inch, 8 Ohm speaker for each sound module.
Originally purchased from ITT Products (Now Obsolete).

Fact:
For a speaker to operate (100%) correctly, correct speaker polarity must be used.

Warning:
For some unknown reason, ITT does not show the "Correct Speaker Polarity Connections",
(+) and (-) terminals on their "Speaker Output Connections". (Why ?).

Test:
Check what is the best "Quality Sound" output from the sound module to the speaker.
Find out what "Speaker Wire Connections" have the best sound quality.

Ed-RRR......

Re: ITT Products:

New GL series sound modules --> Now shipping

RE: Sound Speaker Quality.

To achieve the best sound output quality, a speaker must be connected correctly.
Correct speaker phasing (speaker polarity) wire connections are required.
In-Correct speaker phasing (speaker polarity) wire connections will also reduce the "Base Sound".
When using a small 1" inch speaker, the sound quality difference will "Not" be noticed.
As the speaker gets larger in size, the sound "Quality" difference will be noticed.

I use a 4" inch, 8 Ohm speaker connected, to each of my (x3) ITT sound modules.
I purchased the (x3) speakers from ITT Products (P/N SPKR4) (4" - 8. Ohm Speaker).

Early of 2016 I contacted George at ITT Products.
Email: george@ittproducts.com
I asked him why none of ITT Versions 2010 and ITT Versions 2015
do "Not" have the correct speaker polarity wire connections ?
Then I noticed that ITT Products (P/N SPKR4) (4" - 8. Ohm Speaker), was "No" longer “Available”.
(Wonder Why –-> Larger Speaker Polarity = Requires Better Speaker Sound Quality Connections).

The new GL series sound modules, also do "Not" have the correct speaker polarity wire connections ?

Testing:
Before permanently mounting the sound module and speaker, check for the best sound quality output.
- Correct speaker polarity
- Correct sound module polarity

Speaker Mounting:
Placing a speaker inside a building/structure (a concealed enclosure),
will produce very poor sound quality.
Mounting a speaker directly to the wooden underframe of the model train layout,
will also cause sound vibrations.
Should use small regular "O" ring, soft rubber mounts, to prevent sound vibrations throughout the wooden mounting.

Speaker Locations: (x2 Examples)
What type of sound output chosen, will determine the speaker location. (Direct -or- Background).

Example: (#1)
Turntable sound speaker, directly under turntable, "Speaker Facing Down". (Horizontal)
Image Below --> Speaker Facing Down

Example: (#2)
Background sound speaker, at the back of model train layout, "Speaker Facing Forward". (Vertical)
Image Below --> Speaker Facing Forward

Ed-RRR......

I've been using George's sound modules for many years in my garden railway.  I think they're great.  If you have a sound that you don't see on his list, he will make a module of it for you and no additional charge.  You just need to send hime the recording.  It's simpler than you think.  I've sent him Youtube videos where I liked the sound of a particular section of them.  He has supplied me with a few customized recordings that worked very well. 

RE: Update - Add ITT Sound Module.

ITT Products:
http://www.ittproducts.com/GL.html
New GL Sound Modules (2017)
http://www.ittproducts.com/GL.html

After looking at the new ITT GL Sound Modules (2017),
I found some "Incorrect" assembly instructions.
I just sent a direct e-mail.
Email: george@ittproducts.com
Subject: New GL Sound Modules (2017)

Sent e-mail confirmation.
----- The following addresses had successful delivery notifications -----
<george@ittproducts.com> (relayed to non-DSN-aware mailer)

Question: (#1)
Why do your instructions state 9-14 DC (Direct Current),
when "Polarity" connections do not matter ?

Question: (#2)
Since correct polarity connections are not required,
is there a bridge rectifier converting V-AC to V-DC ?

RE: Sound Speaker Quality.
To achieve the best sound output quality, a speaker must be connected correctly.
Correct speaker phasing (speaker polarity) wire connections are required.
In-correct speaker phasing (speaker polarity) wire connections will also reduce the base sound.
When using a small 1" inch speaker, the sound quality difference will "Not" be noticed.
As the speaker gets larger in size, the sound quality difference will be noticed.
I recommend using 4" inch, 8 Ohm speaker.

Question: (#3)
Why do Speaker (#1) and Speaker (#2) wire connections,
"Not" have the "Correct Speaker" polarity connections ?

[ED-RRR]......

P.S. Will keep you posted with any updates.

RE: Add Real Sound To A Turntable.

This would be the most realistic location to add a sound module.

Warning:
You can not add a "Sound Module" to a stepper motor, controlled by a micro controller,
to rotate a model railway turntable.

- Stepper Motor

ITT Products:

New GL Sound Modules (2017)
--> Operates using 9.V-DC to 14.V-DC.

Special Note:
There many different types [O] scale turntables using V-DC electric motors.
Any type of V-DC electric motor operating between 9.V-DC --> 14.V-DC can be used,
to operate the ITT sound module.

- Atlas

- Bowser

- Diamond Scale

- Millhouse River Studio

Assembly Instructions:
- Require a 8.V-DC to a 12.V-DC power supply
- Almost (98%) of  turntable motors use a 12.V-DC electric motor
- Require a turntable activation switch for required rotation (Series Wiring Connection)
- Require a ITT turntable sound module (Parallel Wiring Connections)

--> Image shown Below.

[ED-RRR]......

Isn't speaker sound enhanced significantly if the speaker is mounted to a sealed backside housing/enclosure??

Wikipedia describes the importance this way... "The primary role of the enclosure is to prevent sound waves generated by the rearward-facing surface of the diaphragm of an open speaker driver interacting with sound waves generated at the front of the speaker driver. Because the forward- and rearward-generated sounds are out of phase with each other, any interaction between the two in the listening space creates a distortion of the original signal as it was intended to be reproduced."

We (LHS) sell dozens of small speakers to model railroaders (principally HO) installing DCC/Sound modules in locomotives.  Small round, oval, square, rectangular housings are available to mount the speakers, facing outward.  The sound enhancement is dramatic!

So, when I've installed George's modules/speakers inside my O scale structures, or underneath the table adjacent to the appropriate scene/accessory, I've built a simple box of, say, masonite for mounting the speaker.  And, as such, I've never found it necessary to use rubber grommets or a gasket.  

I built the O scale church described in this 1938 issue of Model Builder magazine.  (I'll try to post some pictures of the model later.)  

It's huge....and begged for sounds from within.  So I purchased one of George's Church Bell modules for the bell tower.  Its 4" speaker mounted perfectly in a box directly beneath the carillon at the top.  I then added another boxed speaker within the main structure through which I play CD's of church organ/choir/congregational singing (My wife, a church organist, receives demo CD's from sacred music publishers yearly....great for this application.)  

Re the latter, I was at first disappointed with the sound volume from the 4" speaker/enclosure.  It seemed to need some sort of amplification.  But, then, it was pointed out to me that the sound level was entirely appropriate for a listener standing outside a stone church with all of the windows closed up...and at a typical viewing/listening distance.  They were right, of course.   And, so, I realized that there is a 'scale sound' perspective to this whole application of sound modules and their speaker size/placement.  Basically, putting speakers within layout structures is.....awesome!.....IMHO, of course.

BTW, an audio-specialist friend also added, re the purpose/value of a speaker enclosure, that the enclosure structure should be quite rigid.  Otherwise, the walls thereof become a 'secondary' diaphragm, diminishing the overall speaker sound quality.  IOW, cardboard would be less preferable to, say,  masonite, plywood, thick plastic....even metal.  There are, in fact, some commercial products that come in packaging....boxes....that by themselves could be considered suitable speaker enclosures for our hobby purposes.  Simply cut a speaker hole in one side, and a tiny hole elsewhere to feed the wires through.

FWIW, of course....always.

KD

RE: Email Update.
Email: george@ittproducts.com
Subject: New GL Sound Modules (2017)

Hi Ed, [Ed-RRR]

I know there is a bit of inconsistency on voltages. AC / DC / Voltage levels.

Here's the issue.
On board the sound module is a full wave rectifier so polarity does not matter.
This makes it easier for the user anyway.
The issue about how high the max input voltage should be has to do with the 5 volt regulator on the board that drops whatever input voltage down to 5 volts to operate the circuit.
The higher the input voltage, the more heat is dissipated in the 5 volt regulator to drop the voltage.

In the 2010 version the output amplifier was only 1/2 watt. Therefore much less current,
less regulator heat, and higher input voltage capability.

In the 2015 version, the output amplifier was 1 watt.
Therefore, more current, more heat, and slightly lower input voltage capability.

Now in the 2017 GL version, has 2 amplifier channels that are capability of over 2 watts per channel.
Now, more current, more heat plus a heat sink, and lower input voltage.

The higher the amplifier wattage capability, the more current the module draws,
and the more power is dissipated in the 5 volt regulator.

This is why I keep dropping the max input voltage so as to not overheat the 5 volt regulator.
If the 5 volt regulator does over heat, it will shut down until it cools off.
However, I am trying to avoid that situation.

As it is, I now incorporate a small heat sink on the regulator to help dissipate some heat.

Now about the AC.
Many users have AC transformers with higher voltage capabilities.
When AC is converted to DC and filtered, the DC voltage is somewhat higher.
If you have 14 volts AC, rectify it and filter it, it will measure almost 20 volts DC.

So now, I have to be a bit more careful when I say AC or DC.
In the past it wasn't so bad when the amplifiers were less wattage,
but now with much more power, comes more constraints.

Actually, you could use 4 to 10 volts AC and be OK, but many users do not have voltmeters,
or understand the difference between AC or DC
and just connect it to the 18 volt AC terminals on the back of their power pack, or track power.

As for speaker polarity, I am aware of that.
It is an issue with hi fidelity systems, but you would not be able to hear the difference with the small frequency response limited speakers at this level.
In addition, these amplifiers are pulse width modulated and there is no reference to polarity on them.
That would just be one more thing I would have to confuse the user with.

Anyway I hope this helps you understand the parameters I have to work with.

Over the past 27 years, I have sold products to thousands of modellers with various levels of electronic experience.
In addition, not everyone reads the directions. I will have to admit, I am probably guilty of that with many of my purchases.

If you have any more questions, feel free to let me know.

Thanks for your input,
George (george@ittproducts.com)

RE: Speaker Enclosure.

Hello: [Dkdkrd]

You are (100%) correct that adding a speaker enclosure, will enhance the sound output.
But "In-Correct" speaker phasing will also reduce sound quality.

Image Shown Below --> Speaker Phasing

RE: Speaker Polarity.
- ITT Products: GL sound modules (2017)
- speaker polarity is an issue with hi fidelity systems
-  not be able to hear the difference with the small frequency response limited speakers at this level
- these amplifiers are pulse width modulated and there is no reference to polarity on them

[ED-RRR]......

Speaker polarity is only important in multiple speaker installations.  Even then the absolute polarity isn't the issue, it's having all of them in phase that's the primary consideration.  There are countless threads on the Internet about speaker phasing, almost universal agreement is that while phase is very important, the polarity of the speaker connections is not significant if all are matched.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Speaker polarity is only important in multiple speaker installations.  Even then the absolute polarity isn't the issue, it's having all of them in phase that's the primary consideration.  There are countless threads on the Internet about speaker phasing, almost universal agreement is that while phase is very important, the polarity of the speaker connections is not significant if all are matched.

Hello: [Gunrunnerjohn]

Special Note:
- This "Posting" only applies to ITT Products: GL sound modules (2017), from "George".
- It does "Not" apply to "Multiple" speaker installations.

Fact: (#1)
- The new GL Sound Modules (2017) have (x2) speaker outputs.
- Connecting (x1) 8.Ohm speaker to each individual speaker (x2) outputs.

Fact: (#2)
- The new GL Sound Modules (2017) --> do "Not" have the (+) and (-) required speaker connections
- The new GL Sound Modules (2017) --> have amplifiers that are pulse width modulated
- No speaker polarity is required

[ED-RRR]......

ED-RRR posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Speaker polarity is only important in multiple speaker installations.  Even then the absolute polarity isn't the issue, it's having all of them in phase that's the primary consideration.  There are countless threads on the Internet about speaker phasing, almost universal agreement is that while phase is very important, the polarity of the speaker connections is not significant if all are matched.

Hello: [Gunrunnerjohn]

Special Note:
- This "Posting" only applies to ITT Products: GL sound modules (2017), from "George".
- It does "Not" apply to "Multiple" speaker installations.

 

You have a very short memory, or did you forget your pronouncement previously in this thread?

ED-RRR posted:

RE: Speaker Polarity Connections.

Special Note:
Bigger the speaker = Better the sound quality.
I use a 4" inch, 8 Ohm speaker for each sound module.
Originally purchased from ITT Products (Now Obsolete).

Fact:
For a speaker to operate (100%) correctly, correct speaker polarity must be used.

Warning:
For some unknown reason, ITT does not show the "Correct Speaker Polarity Connections",
(+) and (-) terminals on their "Speaker Output Connections". (Why ?).

Test:
Check what is the best "Quality Sound" output from the sound module to the speaker.
Find out what "Speaker Wire Connections" have the best sound quality.

ED-RRR posted:

Special Note:
- This "Posting" only applies to ITT Products: GL sound modules (2017), from "George".
- It does "Not" apply to "Multiple" speaker installations.

Fact: (#1)
- The new GL Sound Modules (2017) have (x2) speaker outputs.
- Connecting (x1) 8.Ohm speaker to each individual speaker (x2) outputs.

Fact: (#2)
- The new GL Sound Modules (2017) --> do "Not" have the (+) and (-) required speaker connections
- The new GL Sound Modules (2017) --> have amplifiers that are pulse width modulated
- No speaker polarity is required

This makes no sense.  First you say this posting only applies to the GL sound module and does not apply to multiple speaker installations.  Then you say the GL sound module has 2 speaker outputs.  Are you saying 2 speakers does not count as multiple speakers? 

FACT: definition of multiple: Having, relating to, or consisting of more than one individual, element, part, or other component.

I don't understand your "FACT" that "No speaker polarity is required."  Are you saying this is because the amplifiers are pulse width modulated (PWM)?   PWM has nothing to do with polarity.  It's like saying you don't have to worry about the polarity of a DC motor if it you drive it with PWM.  A motor will spin backwards if you reverse polarity.  Likewise the speaker cone will move in the opposite direction if you reverse polarity.  Polarity matters when you have multiple speakers.

And the amplifiers on the GL Sound Module have + and - outputs.  It's printed right on the 2 amplifier outputs...looks like an amplifier module you can buy on eBay for less than $1.

Looks very familiar Stan...

Hello: [Gunrunnerjohn] & [Stan2004]

It is quite obvious that you both can "Not" read information correctly.
It also quite obvious that you both are working together, to also shut down this "Posting".

Fact: (#1)
This posting applies to adding background sound to a layout.

Fact: (#2)
George from ITT products is the electrical engineer that designs his own products.

Fact: (#3)
The ITT GL Sound Modules (2017) consists of a:
- voltage regulator
- sound module
- 2 channel, 3 watt amplifier
- 2 speaker connections
- 2 separate volume controls

Fact: (#4)
The new ITT GL Sound Modules (2017) has:
- (X2) separate individual speaker connections
- (X2) separate individual volume controls

Fact: (#5)
George from ITT products stated that the new GL Sound Modules (2017),
amplifiers are pulse width modulated and there is no requirement for "Speaker Polarity".
That is why George does "Not" identify speaker polarity requirements in his instructions.

Question: [Gunrunnerjohn]
Why are talking still talking about speaker phasing ?
The new ITT GL sound modules (2017) use pulse width modulated amplifiers,
not requiring speaker phasing.

Question: [Stan2004]
Why are you stating that George from ITT products is giving "False" information,
when it comes to "Speaker Polarity" wire connections ?

Question: [Stan2004]
Why are you "Only" showing a "Partial" picture of the separate/individual,
2 channel, 3 watt "Amplifier" ?

Question: [Stan2004]
Do you actually know how these (x4) connections from the separate/individual, 2 channel, 3 watt "Amplifier", are wired to the (x4) connections to the (x4) speaker connections ?

Question: [Gunrunnerjohn]
What is this image supposed to be ?

Ed-RRR......

Fact (#1) - Just because the amplifier in question is a Class-D amplifier, that doesn't remove the requirement for phasing multiple speakers if you use them on a single channel.  A single speaker used in pretty much any application indeed doesn't require phasing or polarity considerations.  However, multiple speakers used from the same output most certainly DO require phasing.

ED-RRR posted:

Question: [Gunrunnerjohn]

What is this image supposed to be ?

Ed-RRR......

That is the same design amplifier module, using the same chip as is used the ITT GL Sound Modules.  It was designed by some unknown Chinese engineer, there are tons of them on eBay, the exact same design, just different manufacturing runs.  Contrary to your contention, I seriously doubt that this was designed and built by someone at ITT.  In truth, it would be foolish for them so spend the money on this as you can buy this module for less than the parts cost and it's already assembled.

Perhaps you'll recognize it if it's green, all other factors remain the same.  eBay: 252417497968, 76 cents, shipped free.  I took a picture of the blue one as I have those in my parts bin.

You're really out of your depth here, aren't you?

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Fact (#1) - Just because the amplifier in question is a Class-D amplifier, that doesn't remove the requirement for phasing multiple speakers if you use them on a single channel.  A single speaker used in pretty much any application indeed doesn't require phasing or polarity considerations.  However, multiple speakers used from the same output most certainly DO require phasing.

ED-RRR posted:

Question: [Gunrunnerjohn]

What is this image supposed to be ?

Ed-RRR......

That is the same design amplifier module, using the same chip as is used the ITT GL Sound Modules.  It was designed by some unknown Chinese engineer, there are tons of them on eBay, the exact same design, just different manufacturing runs.  Contrary to your contention, I seriously doubt that this was designed and built by someone at ITT.  In truth, it would be foolish for them so spend the money on this as you can buy this module for less than the parts cost and it's already assembled.

Perhaps you'll recognize it if it's green, all other factors remain the same.  eBay: 252417497968, 76 cents, shipped free.  I took a picture of the blue one as I have those in my parts bin.

You're really out of your depth here, aren't you?

Fact:
I am "Only" talking about "Fully" assembled background "Sound Modules".

Question (#1): [Gunrunnerjohn]
How do you connect your Class-D "Amplifier" to a separate "Sound Board" application ?
- Required power supply
- Speaker connections (x4) like the ITT Product new GL Sound Modules (2017)
- Speaker volume controls (x2) like the ITT Product new GL Sound Modules (2017)

Question (#2): [Gunrunnerjohn]
How do you download the "Wanted" sound wave into this Class-D "Amplifier" ?

[ED-RRR]......

gunrunnerjohn posted:

eBay: , 76 cents, shipped free.

If you buy a ten pack, they can be had for as low as twenty cents each, add a Arduino and a SD card, and play several different sound files depending on which sensor is triggered ..  and simple to change sound file .WAV collection, an easy add on enhancement for any layout, any scale, any era ...

and as far as polarity / phasing, I can sort of  tell 'out of phase'  when I put both speaker up to my ears, [one on each side], but under the layout it doesn't seem to make any audible difference, perhaps because of location, or possibly the relatively low power , or maybe because I'm kind of old ..

ED-RRR posted:

Question: [Stan2004]
Why are you stating that George from ITT products is giving "False" information,
when it comes to "Speaker Polarity" wire connections ?

Question: [Stan2004]
Why are you "Only" showing a "Partial" picture of the separate/individual,
2 channel, 3 watt "Amplifier" ?

Question: [Stan2004]
Do you actually know how these (x4) connections from the separate/individual, 2 channel, 3 watt "Amplifier", are wired to the (x4) connections to the (x4) speaker connections ?

ED-RRR posted:

...

- these amplifiers are pulse width modulated and there is no reference to polarity on them

...

2.  I showed a partial picture to magnify the reference to  "+" and "-" polarity on the amplifier outputs.  I believe this is a commonly accepted method to focus the reader's attention when the full picture was already posted.

3. I have no idea how the "+" and "-" amplifier outputs are connected to the speaker connections.  Since you have the module, perhaps you can enlighten us.

wvgca posted:

and as far as polarity / phasing, I can sort of  tell 'out of phase'  when I put both speaker up to my ears, [one on each side], but under the layout it doesn't seem to make any audible difference, perhaps because of location, or possibly the relatively low power , or maybe because I'm kind of old ..

I'd go with old.   I know I'm using that as my excuse.

stan2004 posted:

3. I have no idea how the "+" and "-" amplifier outputs are connected to the speaker connections.  Since you have the module, perhaps you can enlighten us.

Stan, we don't want to strain him.   This is right from the chip datasheet, it looks like the module is a clone of the datasheet sample application.

I have had enough of this.

George, some of the information you are posting here is not correct. When someone calls you on your mistakes, you make it personal by attacking the people who called you on the errors. You are also trying to promote your products on this forum, but you are not a forum sponsor.

This thread is now closed. Please don't start any more like this.