Bad speakers

Speaker cones are made of either plastic or paper. Both materials are subject to deterioration over time, with the rate of deterioration depending on the individual material, the temperature, and the humidity (especially in the case of paper). An additional factor is added if there is a manufacturing problem in a particular run of speakers, such as the notorious problem with the plating flaking off of the frame on certain MTH Proto-2 speakers. 

These speakers are pretty BAAAAAAD

 

 

I believe it has to be the manufacturing problems.  It takes decades for the material to degrade.  I have 40 year old stereo speakers that still produce sound.

 

The coil wire can open, short, or the bond to vibrate the cone breaks.  The plating issue for the STAR speakers is significant.  I have had STAR speakers break down after 2 years of sitting.  The plating gathers internally around the magnet and coil restricting vibration.  This distorts, reduces and finally silences the sound.  G

The main reason for speaker failure is for years every manufacturer was using the cheapest speaker available. I never understood 100 dollar Railsounds and PS2 systems and 25 cent speakers. Lionel finally saw the light with the introduction of the Fatboys. MTH seems to be slower catching on. Replacing that speaker with a better one will make the biggest improvement. Replacing the sound board with a newer version will have little effect if you keep the old speaker.

 

Pete

Where can i get a speaker replacement for an mth rs3 w/ps2? Whats my best options? I sent a couple emails to a sponsor that was suggested in an older thread but i havent gotten a reply. Its the 16ohm, the plating is disinitgarted, the sound is weak and distorted. I stopped running it until i install a replacement. Thanks!

One source is Lionel. Their Fatboy and Baby Fatboy can be had in 16 ohm versions.

madisound.com has a selection of better drivers also. Look at their 2" Full Range Driver selection. Most of theirs seem to be 4 and 8 ohm though.

 Better drivers tend to have wider magnets and stand taller so check dimensions and make sure you have room before ordering.

 

Pete

 

 

Thanks for the clarification, the mth parts site was confusing. I'll put the order in with MTH.

If the speaker is a 50mm (2") round speaker, all electronics will have it at a fraction of the price and way faster delivery.

 

 

I have the MTH speaker in stock and it will cost less than MTH because of MTH $10 shipping.

 

By the way, go search for round 16ohm 50mm or 2" speakers.  Your not going to find them easily, other than a Chinese corp that wants a 1000 piece order.

 

The Lionel FAT boys, now that I have seen and worked on a few are not really that great.  The Lionel sound advantage is the audio circuit.

 

Also Lionel uses the 16ohms when dual speakers are used.  Not as a single stand alone.

 

The new MSRP for a MTH 16 ohm speaker is now $18, vice the old $10.  Which is a hint at the supply/demand issue of 16ohm speakers in a small package but rated at 3 to 5Ws.  Plenty of .25 and .5W speakers available though.   G

Thanks for posting this I think sound is very important on my engines. Some times I wonder why Lionel puts cheaper speakers in some engines when the 16ohm is only a few $ more.

The new MSRP for a MTH 16 ohm speaker is now $18, vice the old $10.

 

WOW! That is a 90% price increase. Glad I stocked up a while back, though I probably still don't have enough for when all my Proto-2 speakers go out. 

Most of the steam engines now come with Fatboys. There isn't always room for Fatboys in Diesels. These speakers come in both 8 ohm and 16 ohm versions. For 4 ohm applications checkout xUmp.com. Their 2" 4 ohm speaker is excellant despite only costing a few bucks.

 

Pete

You can find speakers to replace the MTH speakers for considerably less than the MSRP of the MTH ones.  2" 16 ohm speakers are a dime a dozen, there's nothing special about the MTH ones.

 

Pun intended!

Thank you Norton for your SOUND advice!!!!
Ralph

16 ohm 2" speakers on amazon. 85 cents each. Shipping $5
.95. I got 4. Probably can order 10 with same shipping.


http://tinyurl.com/mzhkzup


Bob

Please post some link, because I can't find them.  Again, 3 to 5W not the .25 or .5W.  I have plenty of them.  G

Sure .85 plus 5.95 shipping.  Or there $5.95 with .85 shipping.  Also what is the rating?  I believe 0.5W not 3 or 5Ws.  Those speakers are also on ebay, and they are taller than MTH.

 

AGAIN, find a quality 16 ohm 2" speaker rated at 5W. A height of 17mm or less would be nice too.  G

They are 1 watt RMS, 2 watt Max, 3/4" tall

Here's the specs from the source, parts express.

http://www.parts-express.com/2...aker-16-ohm--289-131

Bob

Reasonable price for 1W.  They are taller than MTH so some diesels may cause some modification issues, but for an open tender it would work fine.

 

Notice this is a buy out.  The more I look for speaker it seems the industry has moved towards 4 and 8 ohm, and 16ohm are a dying breed. G

I'd be surprised if you notice the difference between these 85 cent speakers and the MTH $18 ones.   Buy ten and they're only 65 cents.  You get all ten of them and shipping for considerably less than the MSRP of one MTH speaker.

 

Does anyone know what the different boards have for a minimum ohm drive rating? 

 

Thanks,

 

Eric

The price is right but don't expect to improve the sound with these. Frequency response listed (usually very optimistic) is 500-10,000hz. Any chuff sounds will be an illusion.

Better speakers like a Fatboy or some listed at Madisound are good for another octave below 500hz.

 

 

Pete

PS/1 - 8 ohms

PS/2 (5V) - 16 ohms

PS/2 (3V) & PS/3 - 4 ohms

Lionel RS4 & RS5 - 8 ohms

 

I believe most of the newer Lionel stuff still has 8 ohms, but some of the latest may have changed.

 

Thanks John, very helpful. Are those the driver amp rating or the rating of stock speakers?

 

Obviously you know what I am after. With a cheat sheet for the different driver boards, anyone can change series or parallel wiring to open up options in what replacement speakers to use.

 

Eric

No change on Lionel's loudspeaker impedance spec, we always present the Legacy Railsounds sound board with 8 ohms.

Thanks Rudy, I thought they were all still 8 ohms, but I hate to make concrete statements if I'm not 100% sure, I get in enough trouble when I think I'm right!

 

Eric, the impedance of the speakers is just that, the AC impedance.  The power rating of typical speakers for model trains is anywhere from below 1 watt to around 5 watts.  As far as parallel or series operation, you just have to make sure the combined impedance matches the audio output in question.  Parallel speakers divide the impedance by the number of speakers, so two 8 ohm speakers would be 4 ohms, and four 16 ohm speakers would also be 4 ohms.  Series speaker impedance adds, but you should use the same impedance speakers in the string or you'll have unbalanced power.

John, exactly. There are some nice 4 ohm and 8ohm 2" speaker options that should not be ignored because the original was 16ohm.  There is more than one way to skin that cat...

 

Thanks again for your help.

 

Eric

 

Ps. I just noticed my last wording I think caused confusion, I meant driver amplifier board rating, not power

The price is right but don't expect to improve the sound with these. Frequency response listed (usually very optimistic) is 500-10,000hz. Any chuff sounds will be an illusion.
Better speakers like a Fatboy or some listed at Madisound are good for another octave below 500hz.


Pete

Pete
I agree they are not great speakers but neither was the identical looking MTH one with the chrome rot.
I had a lot of trouble finding ANY 16 ohm 2" speakers.
Bob

 

 I have been on a quest to get better bass and overall sound out of my MTH PS2 3v and PS3 engines and have tried a plethora of different speakers. So far nothing I tried seems to have any noticeable improvement, and some made it worse.

 Most of the 2" full range product that Madisound offers you will never fit inside the fuel tank of a diesel and only a couple you are able to sandwich inside a steam tender, most of the 1" full range would fit diesels based on diameter, but are too high; I know because I have tried.

 

So far I have tried the following:

Visaton K50 8ohm and K50WP(so called FatBoy type) - these were the worst out of anything so far. Don't waste your money. The only good thing is they will fit almost any diesel or steamer I tried them in.

Aurasound NSW2 and NSW1 in both 4 & 8ohm. I was told the sound from these would "blow me away" - Huge disappointment. The NSW2's took some work as I had to build a cylindrical frame for them to sit in, and even in the steamers space was at a premium. The NSW1's a little easier to mount, but again almost impossible to get in a diesel.

 

Peerless TCS500 4 & 8ohm and Peerless PMT40 4ohm. These showed a slight improvement. Getting these to fit in a premier diesel would be a stretch, steamers would be ok. Also had to build a cylindrical frame for these to fit in also.

 

Unfortunately for me the bottom line is that none of these aftermarket speakers were any better or worth the effort to install than the MTH factory original or OEM replacement.

If anybody knows of something better or some that actually improve the sounds let me know. I've tried so many at this point, a couple of more can't hurt.

Scott

Since this thread has gone from replacing a bum speaker to improving the sound, we should note the importance of a speaker enclosure, sometimes called a baffle. One of the things that makes Lionel sound superior is that most of their speakers are enclosed. You can get the enclosures from Lionel when you order the Fat Boy speakers. Of course, enclosures are made for specific locomotives, but they can be adapted. 

 

Even a Mickey Mouse homemade speaker baffle made out of a cardboard mailing tube with a flat piece taped on the back can make a big difference in sound. I once installed an MRC AC Sounder in a Williams B unit for a friend. Those things are notoriously short on volume, but with a homemade cardboard enclosure, the sound was quite satisfactory. 

Not necessarily true, but the point was the Watt rating is not the same as the MTH.  So how they distort with sound files that approach 3W is undetermined.  G

True, but try to fit 2 speakers into a diesel or some tenders.  Won't work.

 

Additionally, Lionel uses 2 16ohms in parallel to be equivalent to 8 ohms.  The current is available to drive the speaker correctly.  When you try to use 2 8ohm in series to equate to 16 ohms, the speaker is driven with half the current (power).  Even though two speakers the sound is not as good a 1 16 ohm.  Give it a try.  G

My point exactly, not easy to find, and not easy to find quality one.  G

By far the best sound I ever got out of an MTH engine was with a 3 dollar 2" 4 ohm speaker in a PS2 5V scale Hudson. Loud with the deepest chuff worthy of a Legacy engine.

The collective wisdom of the forum said the 4 ohm speaker would blow up the amplifier designed for 16 ohms but with over 30 minutes run time it never failed. I finally replaced it with a recommended 16 ohm Fatboy. OK but nothing to write home about. Better then the thin paper speaker that engine came with though.

 

http://www.xump.com/Science/Mi...aker-2inch-4Ohms.cfm

 

Pete

Yes, thank you. The enclosure and mounting is just as important as the loudspeaker driver.

 

Rudy Trubitt

director of audio

Lionel, LLC