Basic Rough-in for a new layout

I wouldnt get too into the train layout aspect with the electrician. You'll probably do well with telling him how many circuits you want and how many outlets you want on each one. It sounds like you want switched outlets, so make that known. 

Diagrams of the basement with where you want everything would be helpful. I would physically separate the light switches from the outlet switches. You'll probably want the outlet switches to be the illuminated type, so you dont forget to turn them off when you walk away. Dont put the bricks on a power strip, get enough outlets installed to plug all the bricks directly into the wall. You'll want to plug legacy into the same outlet. You probably will want a 4 gang box of nothing but outlets (or a pair of 2 gangs, I dont know what the code will allow). 

Power the layout with its own circuit. Use one or more for the lights, and give yourself an extra circuit in the train room for things like power tools and accessories. 

If they cant figure it out from what you're telling them, I'm sure they'll ask questions. 

No plans on running MTH stuff ?

Add up the number of rated watts of your power bricks and you'll have a figure to give the electrician.  A 15A circuit equates to about 1800 watts.  You should specify that all outlets feeding your track power transformers are on the same leg of the sub panel (otherwise you'll get phasing problems).  Keep the house lights and other stuff on separate circuits.  Emphasize the need for a good earth ground for TMCC/Legacy radio reception.

One brick per main should be sufficient.  Use 12g or 14g wire to get power+ground out to the loops at multiple points around the loop.  Do not combine the grounds from multiple loops (i.e. avoid the "ground bus" that some post-war layout builders advocated) and connect the loop grounds at a single point at the transformers.  Connect the TMCC/Legacy signal at that point.

Anticipate the need to have an "Earth ground" wire or foil tape to improve TMCC signal if reception problems arise (lots of posts on that subject elsewhere).  If you have multiple levels, the need for Earth ground between levels is likely.

On our modular layouts using Z4000 power, each loop has 10A available before the circuit breaker trips, or about 200 watts per loop.   This is adequate for 2 O-gauge trains.  Standard gauge engines draw more current.  Incandescent layout lights and accessory power can use a lot of amps.

Legacy, TMCC, LCS,  transformers will use up 3 outlets, more if you add ASC2 devices that need additional power to drive the relays.  DCS (w/aux power) and WiFi two more.  Reserve outlets for computer power, routers, and WiFi access points if you intend to go for computer control.

I worked on a large layout getting Legacy and LCS up and running and adding LED lights which needed additional power warts.  10 loops and lots of accessories and lighting with a combination of power bricks and postwar transformers.  14 outlets at the control station were not enough.  This layout also had outlets at various points under the table and we used all of those sockets for lighting transformers.

John

Boilermaker1 posted:

You'll probably do well with telling him how many circuits you want 

Dont put the bricks on a power strip, get enough outlets installed to plug all the bricks directly into the wall. You'll want to plug legacy into the same outlet. 

Power the layout with its own circuit. Use one or more for the lights, and give yourself an extra circuit in the train room for things like power tools and accessories. 

That is really my main question I guess, how many circuits do I need?

What is your reason for not using the power strip? I thought it might be more tidy than a series of half-hot outlets?

Love the idea of seperate circuit for power tools and the like, had not thought of that, thanks

CHOO-CHOO MIKE posted:

No plans on running MTH stuff ?

I heard a rumor some time back that Lionel is redesigning the 180 brick. I am hoping that pans out. Otherwise power bricks of some common size and type. Maybe MTH stuff on the Standard since most of what I have is newer MTH and Lionel on the O gauge since I have no MTH engines.

Tracker John posted:

Do not combine the grounds from multiple loops (i.e. avoid the "ground bus" that some post-war layout builders advocated) and connect the loop grounds at a single point at the transformers.  Connect the TMCC/Legacy signal at that point.

Anticipate the need to have an "Earth ground" wire or foil tape to improve TMCC signal if reception problems arise (lots of posts on that subject elsewhere).  If you have multiple levels, the need for Earth ground between levels is likely.

 

John

"Do not combine the grounds from multiple loops...." Can you explain the reason for that a little more please, I have not heard that before?

The "Earth Ground" would be in addition the regular ground and would be a separate wire I presume?

I would include lighting as your circuit loads increase. You are probably going to use as many amps in  overhead spot lighting as the layout itself...

I agree, my plan is to have each switch on its own circuit

Re: Don't use a power "ground bus" ...

The "ground bus" refers to the pre-TMCC and pre-DCS practice of tying all grounds (multiple loops, accessories, lights, etc.) to a common wire, or bus, under the layouts.  Using the bus reduces the amount of wire required.  While this is fine with low voltage AC power to the trains and other devices, it creates signal problems with control systems.  My club (the National Capital Trackers) experienced significant issues with DCS control, and sometimes with TMCC, with our modular layouts which were always assembled in various configurations.  Our track loops and accessories shared a single ground "bus" wire.  The more complex the modules, the more likely were signal issues (Check Track, or blinking headlights).  After considerable effort experimenting with filters, lights for resistance loads, and other components, we changed our module wiring so every track loop has its own power and ground wire pair (12g) and our signal problems are now greatly diminished.  We also ensured each loop's ground rails were isolated from other loops using fiber pins in all three rails where we had crossing tracks.

MTH recommends a "star" wiring pattern which is all power and ground pairs that supply the track power radiate from a common point.

The star wiring is not practical for a modular layout so we have 12g power and ground wire pairs running under the modules with a track feed every 4ft.  This works well for a 100 ft long modular layout (see us at York this month!).

Re: Earth ground:

The next issue you may encounter is TMCC signal reception loss where tracks pass over each other or tracks are very close in yards.  TMCC signal reception in the locomotives depends on difference in signal strength detected between the broadcast antenna (the track ground rails) and Earth ground.  When the radiated signal from the track overwhelms, or swamps, the Earth ground, then TMCC is lost and the engine's headlight flickers.  This happens in metal bridges where metal ties or track screws connect the bridge to the rails, under overpasses where the signal from the track above swamps the lower track, and in yards, turntable yards, and other areas where track density is high.

To reduce the possibility of TMCC signal issues, start with a good Earth ground connection at your sub-panel which means the "ground" pin of your electrical outlets has good connectivity to Earth ground (your electrician can advise you here).  The ground pin on the Lionel power bricks connects Earth ground to the Legacy radio components for signal broadcast.  Next, connect the Legacy base to the track grounds which are connected together at a single point at the power bricks.  Connecting grounds at a single point reduces DCS signal issues, but it can't hurt for TMCC either.  Do NOT connect accessory and light grounds to the track grounds that broadcast the TMCC signal or each metal accessory, signal tower, or light tower and can potentially swamp the TMCC signal adjacent to the accessory.

If TMCC signal problems exist after proper wiring, start with a multimeter and determine if the track ground rails have connectivity with metal bridges or accessories next to, or above, the track.  Isolate the metal accessories from the track.   Next, provide Earth ground in problem areas by running a wire or foil tape above, under, or next to the track, and connecting that wire to the ground pin at the outlet, or pin 5 of the Legacy Base's serial output.  There is a bit of creativity needed to determine the best approach to running the Earth ground around the layout and there are a lot of posts in the TMCC forum on this subject.  In addition to the relevant OGR forum threads, check out Dale Manquen's website for his TMCC  signal discussion and his pin 5 breakout connector.   Always verify that your Earth ground wiring is isolated from the track power ground after any work on your layout.

Since you are building a multi-level layout where signal swamping of the lower level is likely, I recommend aluminum foil tape (a variant of duct tape) adhered to the underside of upper levels or run an Earth ground wire stapled to the underside - easy to do at layout construction, a PITA after the layout is built.

Re: number of circuits ...

One circuit for the lower level and one for the upper level would be nice.  The breaker may be 15A or 20A on each, and provide enough outlets to handle the number of plugs and power bricks you add up.   Don't know what code says about a large number of fixed outlets on a single circuit, but you can build a multi-outlet box to plug into a single wall outlet if the permanent outlet count is restricted.  Other wall wiring and lights should be on other circuits.

John

Tim, as a retired master electrician, I affirm Boilermaker1's statement to play down the train layout aspect.

The number of circuits and size of your sub panel will depend on the size of your basement.  The electrician will wire it according to code.  Code requires a minimum of one duplex receptacle every 12 feet.   You can put as many outlets on a circuit as you want.   General load calculations for those outlets will result in one 15A breaker for every 8 required outlets.  Have the electrician put all your duplex receptacles on the same phase in the panel.  Have the electrician run 3 wire cabling with the top socket live and the bottom socket switched.  You can have one wall switch per circuit.  Layout power can be fed with UL Listed grounded plug strips with lighted switches. 

Ask the electrician to center one circuit set of duplex receptacles in the center of what will be your layout center.  CORRECTION:  Ask the electrician to center TWO circuit sets of duplex receptacles in the center of what will be your layout center.  That gives your main power access to two 15 amp circuits that will be more than adequate.

Best practice is to design your lighting based on your layout.  You may need more circuits for lighting than wall outlets.  Those circuits will depend on your type of lighting.

My layout household wiring drawings for my basement Run Room are attached.  Feel free to contact me if needed.  My sub panel is behind the door in the laundry room

When I specified the wiring for my office suite (before I retired I had it full of computers), I had all 20A outlet circuits.  I had two outlets on each breaker, and they were staggered so that no adjacent outlets were on the same breaker.  Never had any issues with overloads!