Basic voltage questions UPDATE 4/3/20: changed switch yard lighting strategy (with pictures). Thanks for your help!

Coils eat a good amount of power. Think about it; enough heat to overheat and melt stuff if you go without a rest or park on them  

So similar work heat is at the supply, it just takes time to build up.  The more amps you use, the more heat builds in the supply too. I don't think the modern units "run cooler" per watt or anything. If they do run cooler I'd guess it's more because of the cooling fans...needed for the modern electronics which are a little less heat tolerant than transformer windings and contacts alone. (new sine still has windings )

Gramps used to run hot enough to startle you. You wouldn't necessarily want to rest a hand on the top plate after a hard session.

2v drop doesn't seem much of drop. Didn't you have a light common issue? Is it possible you went light elsewhere and left it alone "for now" and forgot? Maybe a screwy path? (electricity takes the shortest and or easiest route, maxing it, then moving excess needs to the further path... it's possible to be "amp ready" but screw up a path somewhat if your too clever and stingy with power delivery.

CoastsideKevin posted:

...

If the ZW is on without the Z4000 and so obviously not running trains, the ZW stays pretty cool. However once I turn on the Z4000 and start running trains, the ZW gets pretty warm after a half hour or so. After an hour it is hot, but not burning hot.

To be clear, if the ZW is on without the Z4000 does the ZW stay cool after a half hour, after an hour?  Related, is it the mere act of turning ON the Z4000 that causes the ZW to start warming up?  So if you remove the engines from the track and crank up the Z4000 voltages to 12V (or whatever), does this then affect the ZW temperature?  With nothing on the track, what do the Z4000 AMP meters read as you move the handles up and down?

Separately, does your meter measure AC current?  If so, what are the AC voltage and current readings for ZW posts A and D?  Or if you meter does not measure AC current, would it be possible to temporarily move the Z4000 to the ZW and connect the A and D circuits to the two Z4000 outputs?  Crank up the Z4000 throttles to whatever voltage you set the ZW A and D, then note the AMP readings.

Finally, can you estimate the wiring distance from the ZW to the distant problem switch and also the wiring distance from the problem switch back to the manual lever controller?  Do you run 3 control wires from the switch back to the controller?

Note that even using LEDs, you are powering 36 of them (18 switches, 2 LEDs on at a time per switch).  So if each LED draws, say, 10-15 mA, that's maybe 1/2 Amp which can easily translate to a 1-2 Volt drop over a long distance.  And of course when you then actually fire the switch the current drawn by just that distant switch goes up to more than 1 Amp which means the voltage loss from the transformer to the switch solenoid much more than 1-2 Volts.  You can briefly test this line of reasoning by temporarily increase the post A voltage to, say, 18V instead of 14V.  I assume by problem switch you mean sluggish or anemic switch action as opposed to a crisp snap action.  With 18V does the distant problem switch improve?

CoastsideKevin posted:

Hi all,

I have a pretty simple attic layout. Two districts powered by a Z4000 (about 400’ of track including sidings), no command except LC+. For accessories, I use post A on a ZW for constant voltage to the 18 022s and 12 UCS. All bulbs in the 022s and 022c’s are LED. Post B is dedicated to my 282 crane and post C to my two 262 crossing gates. Post D is for lighting only. 3/4 of my lighting is LED but I do have some incandescent bulbs in a few of my postwar floodlight towers (4 banks of 8 bulbs on two 194 towers). I am using 14ga wire for all my track power and 16ga for the 022 daisy chain and the UCS wiring, quite small gauge for the lighting, probably 22ga or so.

If the ZW is on without the Z4000 and so obviously not running trains, the ZW stays pretty cool. However once I turn on the Z4000 and start running trains, the ZW gets pretty warm after a half hour or so. After an hour it is hot, but not burning hot.

 

Thanks for your thoughts on this. Perhaps it’s time to replace the old ZW?

Kevin 

The ZW is not connected to any circuits powered by the Z4000 correct? As others mentioned, does the ZW get hot without running trains, just being on and powering the circuits connected to it?

Working with multiple transformers, track and accessory,   Common/outside rail, often is connected/one and the same. 

P (power in watts) = V (volts) X (amps)

20 watt lamp,  operating at 20 volts,  would draw 1 amp.  

For approximate  discussion.   

Kevin, you have some strange gremlins at work there. There is no way switch machine coils are causing the ZW heating because they are a momentary load...unless they aren't. If you have trains stopping on the non-derailing rails of the O22s those coils would then be drawing continuously and they would also be heating up. Quickly.

You need to go through all your connections and make sure that somewhere you don't have the transformers connected in parallel.  If they are that could be the cause of heating when both are on together.  

Keep in mind that your floodlights alone are using up about half of the ZW's rated output.

Kevin- if the handles on the Z-4000 are up and the ZW is off, do you see voltage at the ZW terminals? Sounds like as others have said you are backfeeding one from the other. They are in phase so it's not causing a short but it will add resistance on the transformers.

Rob, you are referring to these?

my postwar floodlight towers (4 banks of 8 bulbs on two 194 towers).

geysergazer posted:

Rob, you are referring to these?

my postwar floodlight towers (4 banks of 8 bulbs on two 194 towers).

Yes. 2-3 watts each bulb. The ZW is about 180-190 watts continuous output.

Adriatic posted:

Coils eat a good amount of power. Think about it; enough heat to overheat and melt stuff if you go without a rest or park on them  

So similar work heat is at the supply, it just takes time to build up.  The more amps you use, the more heat builds in the supply too. I don't think the modern units "run cooler" per watt or anything. If they do run cooler I'd guess it's more because of the cooling fans...needed for the modern electronics which are a little less heat tolerant than transformer windings and contacts alone. (new sine still has windings )

Gramps used to run hot enough to startle you. You wouldn't necessarily want to rest a hand on the top plate after a hard session.

2v drop doesn't seem much of drop. Didn't you have a light common issue? I have had a couple of shorts in the past but solved those. In the very beginning, I had the common going to the center rail but have since changed that. Is it possible you went light elsewhere and left it alone "for now" and forgot? Maybe a screwy path? (electricity takes the shortest and or easiest route, maxing it, then moving excess needs to the further path... it's possible to be "amp ready" but screw up a path somewhat if your too clever and stingy with power delivery. This is intriguing but I'm not exactly understanding the situation you are describing. I did add extra common wiring to both outside rails because I'm using Gargraves on about 70% of the layout.

 

Thanks! A couple of thoughts above..

stan2004 posted:

CoastsideKevin posted:

...

If the ZW is on without the Z4000 and so obviously not running trains, the ZW stays pretty cool. However once I turn on the Z4000 and start running trains, the ZW gets pretty warm after a half hour or so. After an hour it is hot, but not burning hot.

To be clear, if the ZW is on without the Z4000 does the ZW stay cool after a half hour, after an hour?  Yes, that seems to be what I'm experiencing. Related, is it the mere act of turning ON the Z4000 that causes the ZW to start warming up?Checking this over the next hour or so. So if you remove the engines from the track and crank up the Z4000 voltages to 12V (or whatever), does this then affect the ZW temperature? Experimenting with this now - stay tuned. With nothing on the track, what do the Z4000 AMP meters read as you move the handles up and down? If I move the left handle (inner district) up to 12v, the left ammeter shows .1a and the right shows .1a. If I move it up to 24v, it goes to .1a and .2a respectively. If I move up the right handle (outer district), I get 0.0a regardless of voltage.

Separately, does your meter measure AC current?  Yes. If so, what are the AC voltage and current readings for ZW posts A and D?  I get between .5a and .6a on both A and D at 14v. Or if you meter does not measure AC current, would it be possible to temporarily move the Z4000 to the ZW and connect the A and D circuits to the two Z4000 outputs?  Crank up the Z4000 throttles to whatever voltage you set the ZW A and D, then note the AMP readings.

Finally, can you estimate the wiring distance from the ZW to the distant problem switch and also the wiring distance from the problem switch back to the manual lever controller?  Probably about 18 feet. Do you run 3 control wires from the switch back to the controller? Yes.

Note that even using LEDs, you are powering 36 of them (18 switches, 2 LEDs on at a time per switch).  So if each LED draws, say, 10-15 mA, that's maybe 1/2 Amp which can easily translate to a 1-2 Volt drop over a long distance.  And of course when you then actually fire the switch the current drawn by just that distant switch goes up to more than 1 Amp which means the voltage loss from the transformer to the switch solenoid much more than 1-2 Volts.  You can briefly test this line of reasoning by temporarily increase the post A voltage to, say, 18V instead of 14V.  I assume by problem switch you mean sluggish or anemic switch action as opposed to a crisp snap action.  With 18V does the distant problem switch improve? Yes, that is exactly what happens. Servicing the switches has helped immensely, but I still have a couple that need a temporary boost to get them to fire completely.

Lots to explore here - I'm doing further testing now, but above are some answers. Thanks so much for all these ideas!

BobbyD posted:

CoastsideKevin posted:

Hi all,

I have a pretty simple attic layout. Two districts powered by a Z4000 (about 400’ of track including sidings), no command except LC+. For accessories, I use post A on a ZW for constant voltage to the 18 022s and 12 UCS. All bulbs in the 022s and 022c’s are LED. Post B is dedicated to my 282 crane and post C to my two 262 crossing gates. Post D is for lighting only. 3/4 of my lighting is LED but I do have some incandescent bulbs in a few of my postwar floodlight towers (4 banks of 8 bulbs on two 194 towers). I am using 14ga wire for all my track power and 16ga for the 022 daisy chain and the UCS wiring, quite small gauge for the lighting, probably 22ga or so.

If the ZW is on without the Z4000 and so obviously not running trains, the ZW stays pretty cool. However once I turn on the Z4000 and start running trains, the ZW gets pretty warm after a half hour or so. After an hour it is hot, but not burning hot.

 

Thanks for your thoughts on this. Perhaps it’s time to replace the old ZW?

Kevin 

The ZW is not connected to any circuits powered by the Z4000 correct? As others mentioned, does the ZW get hot without running trains, just being on and powering the circuits connected to it?

That is correct. At this moment I am letting the ZW run on its own for .5 hour, then will power up the Z4000 and let it sit for a half hour and see if the ZW gets hot.

Mike CT posted:

Working with multiple transformers, track and accessory,   Common/outside rail, often is connected/one and the same. 

P (power in watts) = V (volts) X (amps)

20 watt lamp,  operating at 20 volts,  would draw 1 amp.  

For approximate  discussion.   

 

 

Thanks, Mike. I have the whole common circuit of both transformers connected together. 

geysergazer posted:

Kevin, you have some strange gremlins at work there. There is no way switch machine coils are causing the ZW heating because they are a momentary load...unless they aren't. If you have trains stopping on the non-derailing rails of the O22s those coils would then be drawing continuously and they would also be heating up. Quickly.

Hi Lew-  Yes, I agree.  I don't believe I have the issue of the trains sitting on the non-derail rails. Trains generally keep moving along.

It is something I have been scratching my head over for awhile so thought I would put it out to the group. Everything seems to work fine, but the odd part is that the ZW runs cool on its own, but only starts to heat up significantly when I'm running trains with the Z4000.

Dick Malon posted:

You need to go through all your connections and make sure that somewhere you don't have the transformers connected in parallel.  If they are that could be the cause of heating when both are on together.  

Hi Dick - yes, that would make sense that it would do that, but I don't see any evidence of that on the meters. The only part of the ZW that is getting near the track is post A 022 and UCS constant voltage. Possibly current from the Z4000 getting back to the ZW through one or more of those?

ADCX Rob posted:

Keep in mind that your floodlights alone are using up about half of the ZW's rated output.

Right, Rob, that is a lot. Plus I have another 15-20 incandescent bulbs at various other places on the layout, so I think the power is adding up. But when I check current on that post D, I only see .6a at 14v. Shouldn't I be seeing more? I trust my meter - it is a Fluke 77. EDIT: These readings were incorrect. See below. Sorry!

RSJB18 posted:

Kevin- if the handles on the Z-4000 are up and the ZW is off, do you see voltage at the ZW terminals? Sounds like as others have said you are backfeeding one from the other. They are in phase so it's not causing a short but it will add resistance on the transformers.

That was my first guess, but I looked and don't see any voltage at the ZW when it is off and the Z4000 is cranked up to 20v. If I turn the ZW on and up to 8v and crank up the Z4000 to 20v on either handle, I don't have any increase in voltage on the ZW - stays at 8v.

ADCX Rob posted:

geysergazer posted:

Rob, you are referring to these?

my postwar floodlight towers (4 banks of 8 bulbs on two 194 towers).

Yes. 2-3 watts each bulb. The ZW is about 180-190 watts continuous output.

I'm starting to think more and more this might be it. That's a lot of wattage. I count about 50 incandescent bulbs on the layout in total. I always thought the 194s used less wattage because the bulbs are funky and different (lower?) voltage. But if they indeed take 2-3 watts per bulb, that is high and then the added load of the switches and crossing gates might just be enough to get the ZW warm. Still seems strange the ZW stays fairly cool on its own, and also see my question above about only showing .6a on the D post and .5a on the A post. Oddly, I'm seeing about the same on B and C even though those accessories (282 on B and crossing gates on C) are not being activated. EDIT: All these readings were incorrect. Correct amperage is post A: .7a, post B and C: 0.0, and post D (lighting): 4.5a. My apologies for that error. 

CoastsideKevin posted:

stan2004 posted:

Separately, does your meter measure AC current?  Yes. If so, what are the AC voltage and current readings for ZW posts A and D?  I get between .5a and .6a on both A and D at 14v. Or if you meter does not measure AC current, would it be possible to temporarily move the Z4000 to the ZW and connect the A and D circuits to the two Z4000 outputs?  Crank up the Z4000 throttles to whatever voltage you set the ZW A and D, then note the AMP readings.

Aha! I just realized I was measuring the current incorrectly. My apologies, guys. Turns out post A (switches and UCS) is drawing .7a at 14v, and post D (lighting) is drawing about 4.5a at 14v. That makes much more sense. So the lights are a big draw. 

CoastsideKevin posted:

ADCX Rob posted:

Keep in mind that your floodlights alone are using up about half of the ZW's rated output.

Right, Rob, that is a lot. Plus I have another 15-20 incandescent bulbs at various other places on the layout, so I think the power is adding up. But when I check current on that post D, I only see .6a at 14v. Shouldn't I be seeing more? I trust my meter - it is a Fluke 77.

Rob and others - my apologies! I was measuring amperage incorrectly. Turns out post A (switches and UCS) is drawing .7a at 14v, and post D (lighting) is drawing 4.5a at 14v. That makes much more sense given all the switches and controllers have LEDs, and the incandescent bulbs are all on post D. That's a lot of juice for lights! 

Now use your Fluke to check the entire load on the ZW both by itself and with the Z4000 on. You will need to connect all "U" leads to one lead on the Fluke,  and the other Fluke lead to a "U" post on the ZW to test this.

CoastsideKevin posted:

BobbyD posted:

CoastsideKevin posted:

Hi all,

I have a pretty simple attic layout. Two districts powered by a Z4000 (about 400’ of track including sidings), no command except LC+. For accessories, I use post A on a ZW for constant voltage to the 18 022s and 12 UCS. All bulbs in the 022s and 022c’s are LED. Post B is dedicated to my 282 crane and post C to my two 262 crossing gates. Post D is for lighting only. 3/4 of my lighting is LED but I do have some incandescent bulbs in a few of my postwar floodlight towers (4 banks of 8 bulbs on two 194 towers). I am using 14ga wire for all my track power and 16ga for the 022 daisy chain and the UCS wiring, quite small gauge for the lighting, probably 22ga or so.

If the ZW is on without the Z4000 and so obviously not running trains, the ZW stays pretty cool. However once I turn on the Z4000 and start running trains, the ZW gets pretty warm after a half hour or so. After an hour it is hot, but not burning hot.

 

Thanks for your thoughts on this. Perhaps it’s time to replace the old ZW?

Kevin 

The ZW is not connected to any circuits powered by the Z4000 correct? As others mentioned, does the ZW get hot without running trains, just being on and powering the circuits connected to it?

That is correct. At this moment I am letting the ZW run on its own for .5 hour, then will power up the Z4000 and let it sit for a half hour and see if the ZW gets hot.

UPDATE: So today I left the ZW on at 14v, and after a half hour or so, it was starting to get warm. Turning on the Z4000 and letting it idle did not cause the ZW to get any warmer. My theory is that since I am pulling over 5 amps with layout lighting, the ZW is just slowly warming up, and it warms up faster when I'm using the layout because of the additional draw of the switches and the crossing signals. I think the solution may be to trade in my postwar floodlights for modern LED units to cut down on power consumption. Any suggestions that people have would be appreciated. I have one of the Lemax Field Lights and it seems ok. Anything better?

Many thanks to everyone who weighed in and helped me figure this out! 

Accessories can draw a lot.  My Lionel Train/Hobby shop draws over 2 amps at 15 volts.  I posted awhile back asking others to measure theirs.  I think I have the only one made.  No one took a volt reading and posted.  2 amps might be normal, but we'll never know.  I imagine other things can soak up amps.  I know incandescent street lights will draw a lot.

ADCX Rob posted:

Now use your Fluke to check the entire load on the ZW both by itself and with the Z4000 on. You will need to connect all "U" leads to one lead on the Fluke,  and the other Fluke lead to a "U" post on the ZW to test this.

Rob - does it matter if I'm measuring common or hot? When I got the 4.5a reading on the ZW, I was measuring across the hot, not U. Thanks.

You probably can get LED bulbs to replace the floodlight tower bulbs without buying new towers.

RJR posted:

You probably can get LED bulbs to replace the floodlight tower bulbs without buying new towers.

I have had success doing that with some of my  lighting, but these 195 towers take an unusual, two-pronged bulb rated at .10ma at 14v. Never seen an LED equivalent. 

Bryant Dunivan 111417 posted:

Accessories can draw a lot.  My Lionel Train/Hobby shop draws over 2 amps at 15 volts.  I posted awhile back asking others to measure theirs.  I think I have the only one made.  No one took a volt reading and posted.  2 amps might be normal, but we'll never know.  I imagine other things can soak up amps.  I know incandescent street lights will draw a lot.

Yes, true. After work I’m going to measure the draw from my crossing gates and my 282 crane. I’m guessing they will be over an amp each, maybe closer to 2. 

Kevin, you've got something wrong.  No way do those bulbs only consume only .10ma.

I looked it up.  It draws 0.1 amp, which means 10 of them pull one amp and that they are 1.44 watts each.  Base is bi-pin 2.54.  The same company that you got that bulb listing also has LED bulbs with bi-pin 2.52 bases.  Browse the last and maybe you find one.  You may have to apply a different voltage to the towers.

CoastsideKevin posted:

CoastsideKevin posted:Rob and others - my apologies! I was measuring amperage incorrectly. Turns out post A (switches and UCS) is drawing .7a at 14v, and post D (lighting) is drawing 4.5a at 14v. That makes much more sense given all the switches and controllers have LEDs, and the incandescent bulbs are all on post D. That's a lot of juice for lights! 

This makes perfect sense. Obviously why the ZW is warming over time.

Time for a bunch of LEDs. 

RJR posted:

Kevin, you've got something wrong.  No way do those bulbs only consume only .10ma.

I looked it up.  It draws 0.1 amp, which means 10 of them pull one amp and that they are 1.44 watts each.  Base is bi-pin 2.54.  The same company that you got that bulb listing also has LED bulbs with bi-pin 2.52 bases.  Browse the last and maybe you find one.  You may have to apply a different voltage to the towers.

Oh yes, of course. .1ma would be quite something! Yes, .1a = 100ma which makes sense. Since I have 4 banks of 8 lights, that’s 3.2 amps in just those two towers alone, or more than half of all the lighting power on my layout. I will definitely look again for the LEDs. Thanks!

Glad you figured it out Kevin. Sometimes just kicking ideas around on here gets the brain cells working. I tend to get tunnel vision sometimes and bouncing some ideas of others helps break the brain cramp.

Bob

CoastsideKevin posted:

these 195 towers take an unusual, two-pronged bulb rated at .10ma at 14v.

Incorrect, @CoastsideKevin. The 195 towers actually use a #12 6.3 Volt .95 watt bulb and are actually wired in series in the 195 tower. The #19 14.4V .1A you referenced identical in form factor to the #12, and used elsewhere in the Lionel lineup.

bmoran4 posted:

CoastsideKevin posted:

these 195 towers take an unusual, two-pronged bulb rated at .10ma at 14v.

Incorrect, @CoastsideKevin. The 195 towers actually use a #12 6.3 Volt .95 watt bulb and are actually wired in series in the 195 tower. The #19 14.4V .1A you referenced identical in form factor to the #12, and used elsewhere in the Lionel lineup.

Ah, thank you for the correction. Still, 4 banks of 8 bulbs seems to take plenty of juice. 

Any idea if there is an LED equivalent for the #12 6.3v bulbs?

See this 8-year old OGR thread where member Bobby Ogage converts the #195 tower to LEDs.  Apparently it is not a straightforward task.  I did not find a concluding thread or consolidated how-to instructions so perhaps the project was abandoned?  If I understand the discussion from back then, Lionel re-designed the #195 to use LEDs so that might be the closest exit.

But it seems to me the issue of sluggish distant switches is still an issue?  As I stated earlier, the 1-2V drop on post A (14V, 0.5A) is much worse when the switch solenoid actually fires as the current jumps to a couple Amps.  If I understand your 18 ft answer to my distance question, that's 9 ft from ZW to distant switch and then another 9 ft from switch back to the lever controller near the ZW?  Hmm.  That should not be a problem if you had a "pure" 22ga connection over that distance.  But with connectors, splices, whatever who knows!  I don't know what's easy to try but some experiments could include, 1) temporarily running a test piece of 14ga (or whatever heavy gauge you have) directly from ZW post A to the distant switch, or 2) taking a spare lever controller and attaching  the 3-wire control cable with only a few inches of wire right at the distant switch.  The idea is to ferret out where the drop is coming from.  I may be getting ahead of myself here but I'm imagining some scheme to parallel a few strategically placed wire runs - much like the idea of wiring track voltage with multiple feeders.

CoastsideKevin posted:

Rob - does it matter if I'm measuring common or hot? When I got the 4.5a reading on the ZW, I was measuring across the hot, not U. Thanks.

Yes, you want to measure the current demand on the whole transformer. It's much easier to isolate the common as opposed to 4 variable taps.

Stan, I don't think he said 22ga for the switch power.  Years ago I used 022 switches, with incandescent bulbs, and found that the draw was very heavy when the solenoids activated.

022 switch performance is also substantially improved if you omit the center wire between switch and controller, and connect the middle wire coming out of the controller directly to transformer ground.

ADCX Rob posted:

CoastsideKevin posted:

Rob - does it matter if I'm measuring common or hot? When I got the 4.5a reading on the ZW, I was measuring across the hot, not U. Thanks.

Yes, you want to measure the current demand on the whole transformer. It's much easier to isolate the common as opposed to 4 variable taps.

Ok thanks. I’m so used to working in DC that sometimes I forget you can do this. Will give it a try. 

RJR posted:

Stan, I don't think he said 22ga for the switch power.  Years ago I used 022 switches, with incandescent bulbs, and found that the draw was very heavy when the solenoids activated.

022 switch performance is also substantially improved if you omit the center wire between switch and controller, and connect the middle wire coming out of the controller directly to transformer ground  

Correct - I’m using 16 for the switch power. Your last point about the center wire on the controller makes perfect sense and I wish I would have known/thought of that when I was wiring them up last year. Retrofitting them now would be a big job.