Blue Comet Passenger Set Paint Chipping

Ken/Deb:

GLAD you are enjoying your new SG BC set! 

We "touch 'er uppers" are obviously in a minority on this thread, but it can be done to YOUR satisfaction:

Contact Jeff Strank at MTH and ask him to send you the metal paint chips for the LIGHT and DARK Blue Comet blues, so you can get an accurate match for a custom paint mix.

Ken:

The touch-up paint supplied by MTH is a TWO-STEP process, involving the paint, PLUS a "hardener". The shelf life of these products is only a few days!  Also, they have to be mixed in a precise ratio and then quickly applied to the surface being touched up!

Too much hassle for me, so I elected to use the metal paint chips for the Showroom cars (dark and light green) supplied by MTH. I spoke with Jeff Strank, and he arranged for these to be sent by mail.

I then went to my local hardware store and had them computer match and mix both colors (minimum one-quart). The gentleman in the paint dept. recommended a rust-inhibiting, oil-base paint, which he expertly mixed from the painted metal paint chips.

I used both "superfine" paint applicators and fine English Sable brushes for the touch-up work. The FULL drying time for this particular oil-base enamel is about 48 hours, so by the time I applied a second coat of BOTH colors, it took four days, but it was worth the wait!

Hope this helps! 

We contribute and read these forums as a place to learn and to dispense knowledge, as well as a good debate.

If I were someone thinking about entering the market for LCT/MTH/LTI stuff, and was looking for information with the intention of buying, I'd have to say that if I read enough of this forum regarding these issues (and you don't have to read very far into this forum to find one of these quality posts), I'd have to form the conclusion that there is a fair chance that what I will get when the box shows up has some sort of damage. Then I suppose the potential buyer would have to assess his tolerance to risking the buy and hope that it comes in unblemished.

So I don't know. After reading a quite a few paint sagas like this or about the Brute, etc. in this forum, one should just figure that those guys are just the whiners making the complaints?

I certainly understand that my cut on percentages has no scientific basis or research behind it, other than me thinking that a lot of people are writing about this same paint condition issue. But I doubt it is any less scientific and probably more accurate, if based solely on the number of complaints in this forum,  than Allan's estimate of 0.1% (remember, that's one in 1000 pieces having a defect).

The only accurate way to do it would be to collect how many items were bought and how many of them had paint defects over a period of time (It's been happening throughout MTH's history. People claimed the old LTI stuff was notorious for bad paint). Even then you get into the discussion as to level of defect, etc. But that's not the point. People read these forums for a variety of reasons, and one of them is to get a feel for the quality of a product and how the company treats customers.

Honestly, over many years, I have read consumer feedback on many different products. I have bought products that a number of consumers complained about, thinking that the writers are overly picky, crazy, or whatever. I'd think that the item can't be that bad. Every single time, the consumer feedback was dead on, and I generally experienced the same issues.

Ken:

By the way, I used a turkey "baster" to siphon off a smaller amount of paint from the quart cans into two little jars, which made things more manageable.

  You're a braver man than I am, TA -- I wouldn't even THINK of doing that in this household !

Best, SZ  [ obviously a total wuss ]

I would be the one who stated 1 in a 1000 items. jsfro states 1 in 20. There was a thread on this and everyone piled on until myself and Gary Seven stated how many pieces we own with our defect rate.

It does not take long here to discover who has an axe to grind with MTH and Mike Wolf personally. It had been about 4 guys.

In reading this forum one can clearly see how messed up originals are. The defect rate on these is 100%. Nary a thread goes by without talk of redoing the motor broken this broken that. Zinc pest on and on. Then the unfortunate guy who buys an original only to find inferior touchups and repo parts. Funny how these sellors state all sales final. One sellor had the nerve to answer a complaint about a misrepresented item with "well thats E-Bay".

If MTH ever stops making tinplate it will be from a lack of market and not because of an inferior product. In the modern tinplate era they are the most successful because they build the best product.

Jim C - there's a VERY big difference between 1 in 5, and 5% (which is what was actually posted).  QC is a big issue, and as the price of these trains continues to climb, all mfgs will have their feet held to the fire because of the glaring lack of it. 

Mike what problems with MTH Tinplate QC have you personally had. jsfro same question.

The price continues to climb? Newest thread about #10 passenger set. Original price $599. Buy similiar today still $599. Set from 8 years ago had 3 cars. Set today has 2 cars. Set today has remote commander and newer PS-2 or 3 technology. Not a bad trade off to hold the price line.

Edit:I could not find when they went to 2 cars on a electric starter set. They went a number of years without offering an electric starter set.  It looks like steamers have always been 2 cars. Another feature of a new set is the plastic track if you like it and although I do not use it I think with the pads available it would be perfect for on the floor. Add in the fact they most likely MTH must be paying Lionel something in royalties for the use of there name in badging.

OK, lets first state that the above post is correct, 1 in 20 is 5%. Like I said, I used nothing scientific but an aggregate of forum posts and old history, but it's no less scientific than 1 out of 1000, is it? Like I said, tally up your defective purchases, then tally up your total. Divide the first number by the second and multiply by 100, and you'll see what percentage of your items are defective. I have only my Lionel Red Comet, which is fine.

Of the four modern tinplate purchases I have made, SG Lionel Hiawatha, two MTH/LTI O gauge Hiawathas, and one Lionel red comet, two had paint issues. Guess which two. The LTI/MTH Hiawathas. One was reasonably acceptable, the other was sent back and they replaced the engine. So, I'm at 50%. If you count MTH alone, that's 100%.

As for original prewar versus modern items, you might as well be comparing a fish to a vase. They are completely different and need approached in a completely different manner.

When you buy originals today, you pay for originality, condition and rarity. Lower condition, lower price, higher degree of rarity, higher price, touchup and repair, lower price. You have to remember what you're looking at when you view a train that is approaching 100 years old. How many 85 year old anythings don't have some wear or in need of repair.

Remember, ALL the old ones were made as toys, not adult collectible/toys, and as a result, anything bought today is inherently USED and will ALL have defects when placed on the same scale as something new.

Are you really saying that something 85 years old is expected to be as defect free as something made this year? Come on, that's just ridiculous. And if you are, then stand in line and thank M. Wolf for making repro items, because you'd be sorely dissatisfied with originals. There is not an original prewar buyer out there that expects defect free items or that the item will run like new without servicing it. That, again, is part of the process of collecting originals.

You cannot expect to find uniformity in original items like you should be able to in a brand new item because they are all old and used. As for the zinc rot you mentioned, yes, it is a well known fact that these old trains (lets not forget the recent thread on MTH stuff with it as well) can fall victim to it. Remember my comment on originality and price. You can find examples without zinc rot, say to the wheels, but, it will cost you more money than one that needs reproduction wheels, etc. You have to buy with your eyes open. You need to find it in an acceptable condition, and you need to know what you're looking at. There are no two ways around that. You have to educate yourself.

If someone buys a misrepresented piece, well, that's not the train's fault. Either the buyer doesn't understand the market, the seller doesn't understand his item, or the seller knowingly is passing off a bad item, which is not tolerated well by others. But remember, someone will want to purchase a "bad" item, if the price is right. To that guy, it's not so bad.

As a casual seller of prewar items, I offer 100% refund on anything I should happen to sell, and do not play around with anyone's dissatisfaction, you don't like it, you don't have to keep it. The market is too small, and it doesn't take long to either establish yourself as some to be trusted or not.

Look, what I am trying to say is that these repro items are new, and should be just about perfect, out of the box. Almost everything we buy is perfect out of the box. If not, we don't settle for it. The forum threads and past history tell me that for over 25 years, they still haven't figured out their paint issues. People don't like it but are willing to accept it. I don't get the acceptance part, as you pay through the nose for this stuff. And I don't understand how someone will in one paragraph post how disappointed they are about the paint flaws in their long awaited purchase, and then, a few paragraphs down, say Thank you, Thank you, Thank you to Mike Wolf. That just doesn't make any sense.

And, I'm not saying M. Wolf is a bad guy, and acknowledge that he's done more for tinplate in the recent past than anyone else. But, he is a business man. He'll make the changes consumers would like when he has to. Right now, he apparently doesn't have to.

The recent so-called paint "flaws" (chips or flaking) may quite simply be caused by the premature placement of the styrofoam padding over incompletely dried or "tacky" enamel. That was clearly the case with my Showroom cars.

Though rather disconcerting, especially to those of us with OCD, these issues are readily correctible, and are relatively minor in the grand scheme of things.

I have asked Jeff Strank to personally make Mr. Wolf aware of these issues in the hope of the factory taking measures to prevent this problem in future production.

I will likely continue to buy LCT products, but in the recent potential purchase of an add-on "Barnard" Blue Comet car, have requested the dealer to open and inspect the car for any paint issues before purchasing.

You really do not have any MTH modern tinplate. Lionel Classics are a Lionel product and the deal with the factory in Korea was put together by Mike Wolf. At some point Mike Wolf was married to the owner of this factory.

When originals were made they had there share of problems. Did not Dorfan go bankrupt because one of there engines fell apart. Lionel selling an add on car for the State set that could not be pulled by the 381E. Every product ever made at one point had production problems in fit finish and mechanical. There is a lot to these trains.

My first STG set an original 1766,67,68 with a 385E in nickel trim has the cars badged 2 in nickel and one in brass. I would love to have the cars flawless but will not repaint the roofs because of the excellent condition of the cars themselves. I bought the set in a private deal with the original owner. These cars are not cobbled together and in my mind should be kept all original. The engine is restored because it was a total wreck.

Do not fool yourself in thinking originals were made completly as toys. The term Adult/Collectible maybe was coined much later than pre-war trains but that does not mean people were not doing it. The new stuff some people may place it on a shelf but by and large most are running it under the Christmas tree or have layouts. I do not know if a collectible has to go up in value or not. MTH tinplate pretty much goes like this. MSRP $1000 10% off for street price and keep it 10 years and sell it for around $600.

Based on what you say here you are most likely a reputable sellor. I avoid that no returns accepted.

The couple have the correct approach. There train has a minor problem which will be fixed and why should they let that rain on there parade. They are happy that MTH or Mike Wolf made it nothing more.

The problem with these cars seems more in packaging than production. The cars are going in the box perfect then the paint is coming off by one of the 2 theories or something else. The problem certainly does not have to be on every car in the production run like one person has stated. It was not in every State Car last year and this is the first batch of Blue Comet cars. The one set of LCT Blue Comet I have seen in Brass were perfect. The sets here are Nickel.

    Okay i have been watching this and am ready to comment. 

   What everyone needs to remember is these are toys. 

   These trains are made in China because labor and manufacturing is cheap. Items made in the orient have always had a bad reputation for inferior quality. So does the guy making junk money really care if the train for some rich American gets a chip in the paint, No. Can we expect MTH to inspect each item as it comes into the country, No. So like others say, either accept the damage and play with the toy, or send it back. Whining about it does no good. I realize the threads were not started to whine, but it sure turned into that. 

   To me the New MTH trains have a revolting appearance. This is my opinion and i am not trying to start an argument. They are not for me. If you like them, that is fine. I totally disagree that it is a superior product to an original. I bet not many are still running in 80 years. I was also told at York that the copper and brass trim isnt even brass and copper, but finished steel. Not for me. No i did not cut a piece open to see. It is a rumor. If you like them, that is fine, but dont try to convince me otherwise, and i wont try to convince you. People bash originals on here all the time, and i dont comment, so now im voicing my OPINION. 

   As for dealers of originals selling trains as-is well think about it. We sell someone an 80 plus year old toy that we did not build and they expect a guarantee to run it for hours without servicing? No way. If you are going to buy old items and use them, then you should be prepared to work on them and keep them maintained. Would you buy a ford model t and expect to drive it on a cross country trip, no. So why expect it from a toy? 

  It seems we are getting more business from people buying original trains for their quality, especially since people like Hannon are available to repair the motors to operate flawlessly. I receive many emails about trading in an MTH product on an original. People are sick of the electronic issues and poor quality and they are paying a premium for it. So they are done with it. Based on the tiny piece of the market i see, customer satisfaction is poor, much greater than 1%. 

  I think the vast majority of the customers buying this new stuff are active on the forum. When i would see an ad for tinplate traditions, I used to ask myself, "who buys this stuff?"I didnt know until i found this forum. 

 Should you expect a new train to look perfect out of the box, yes. Should the manufacturer stand behind the product and replace a defective piece, yes. Will they, probably not. 

 If this was 1930 and you got a bad product from IVES, Dorfan, AF, or Lionel would they have replaced it? Yes! 

 IVES gave away free trains to kids who sent money for a catalog saying they couldnt afford a train and just wanted to look at the pictures.

 Dorfan went bankrupt replacing bad castings in their locomotives. 

 Lionel repaired and repainted items no questions asked. 

 These toys were made by people who loved them and cared about the customers who bought them. Pride was taken in the manufacturing process. Pride was taken in them long after they left the factory. The seller customer relationship meant something. They were made in NY, Connecticut, Chicago, and New Jersey with Pittsburgh Steel, not a world away by people making poverty wages who just want to fill the order and go home. Thats why i like originals, they have a soul. They may be beaten and bruised, but they tell a story. 

 Im sure this will just make people offended and mad, but hey, this is a forum to share opinions. Respect mine!

Sorry, but you are 100% wrong about that.  I really hate seeing "urban legends" perpetuated.

I am with Allan:

Mike Wolf was NEVER married to the daughter of the owner of Samhongsa! 

I have no axe to grind with Mike Wolf.  I have talked  to him a dozen times at York...He wouldn't know me if he fell over me.  My opinions here stem from a DESIRE to buy lots of his trains. I want him to clean up his act...that's ALL!!!  There are no WHINERS here...just pictures of defective product. NIGHTHAWK is a DEALER in Antique Trains, so EVERY ONE of his posts is slanted that way.  His knowledge of new trains is based on HERESAY, not purchase.  To even think that the LCT market is supported by this Forum is foolhardy.  This forum is great, but it wouldn't make a pimple on an elephant's butt if you think WE represent the vast majority of anything.  I bought the Zinc Chromate Brute to avoid the paint chip problem.  Someday, I will get the cars to match...and someday, I will run across the GREEN set at auction...with no paint chips.  Are they all defective???...TIME WILL TELL!!!  Incidentally, I have made repeated requests to see the damage on the Brute, but noone wants to show for whatever reasons.  Maybe, the paint loss is overblown in my mind.  SO, thanks to the initial poster for SHOWING the defects...THANKS SO MUCH!!!  It's much easier to discuss DOCUMENTED FACTS.  As for undocumented "fact" on here, may I suggest if you are going to regurgitate stuff from books on here, that you look at more than one book before you apread the LEGEND!!!  Ron B.

"Not a bad trade off to hold the price line."

You can't be serious.  An add-on car is at least $150; making a 3 car set $750 or thereabouts.  PS-3 & remote commander - tradeoff?  PS-3's being put into all new production - not as if it's a luxury feature or an optional upgrade, and the remote commander is ?$40-$50? MSRP; hardly a wash compared to decontenting a set by 33% of its passenger consist.

Add-on cars were once $149.95 and now MSRP for $139.95. They do not sell very well.

All that aside there is still the 384E steamer sets I mentioned that still sell for $599.95 MSRP with nothing removed and the same upgrades. BTW the best price is about $491 pre-order which ends up being everyday low price. 8 years ago the best you could do was 10% off. 

Mike have you had any problems with MTH tinplate personally?

Jim...was not referring to your post as to the marriage thing...I heard and believed the same thing...don't really know if Art and Allan are correct.  Perhaps, I will ask Mike.  I think he may know the answer to that.  Thanks for the compliment on my posts.  I try to get it right.  A couple people think I am too opinionated...I have TRIED to temper that a bit by typing, waiting a few seconds, rereading, and then either deleting or sending.  I enjoy blowing time on here, so I don't wanna tick anyone off(TOO MUCH)!!!  I do have a question though...DOES THE PAINT ON THE LCT Blue Comet, GREEN/BROWN State Sets MATCH the shades used on the Lionel CLASSICS???  Two factors here...the actual paint shades AND the 20 year TIME LAPSE!!!  Thanks, Ron!!!

I wonder why MTH just didn't do Art ended up doing. 

There is almost no value in getting a paint that has a shelf life of two days and then needs to be expertly applied.  A much better solution would have been to supply touch-up paint that could have been used by the 'average' modeler.

Seems to me this might make for more folks willing to do the repair themselves.

Jim

p.s. A little "We're sorry" token of some type back to the purchaser might also help customer relations.

WHY NOT RECALL the trains, and refinish/respray in Columbia, Md.???  Eat the costs, find the problem, and solve the problem.  Art has previously responded that this would be cost prohibitive.  How about a train manufacturer/Distributor, or Dealer with inside knowledge responding this time???

Art is right.  It would be cost prohibitive because MTH is not currently set up to handle that sort of thing in Maryland, and that is particularly true in the case of a very limited run set of cars.  The cost of a trained/skilled laborer alone would be prohibitive...not everyone knows their way around this rather specialized and exacting kind of painting process.

ALL:

I chose MY particular approach to touching up the Showroom cars after declining a refund, and after consultation with Jeff Strank, An MTH executive, who was VERY courteous and helpful.

My approach worked for ME, but I recognize it would be rejected by others.

The "bottom line" is I AM satisfied with my semi-skilled paint touch-up process! 

In a "perfect" world, which does NOT exist, witness hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes, disease, pestilence, tsunamis, war, murders, et cetera, et cetera, maybe everything man-made would be without flaws, but that is NOT the world we live in! 

I placed an order with another dealer for the same cars and asked that they inspect the cars before shipping.

I just got an email that they canceled the order because they noticed minor paint imperfections.

I will keep trying.

Frank

Wow, what a mess this turned out to be for buyers and MTH. I had heard about this issue, but do not buy new items outside of one state set long ago so I had not experienced it personally. I happened into my local train shop yesterday to pick up some paint for a project I'm working on and both the staff were at a table with these sets and they were opening and inspecting each car with a magnifying glass. I asked to see what they were finding. The one car I looked at the chips were so minute as to be the size of a flea. But they said they found others with larger chips and even some that had paint touch up. So it may be that MTH is taking returns, doing the paint touch up and repackaging them into new sealed sets. These guys were having trouble finding one of each car without chips to complete one set for a customer. What a hassle. I agree with what Ron Blume said earlier that the bottom edge of the roof is probably not smooth, but I think a bigger part of the problem is modern technology and/or paint mixture. In short the harder a paint is, the easier it is to chip. I think the paint is way too hard and unforgiving when another part or edge is against it and moves. The other possibility is that the paint is too thin allowing chipping to occur too easily.

Gandy

Hmmm...it just might be cheaper to RESPRAY to protect FUTURE SALES.  Could this be the first domino to fall???  Can't seem to find pictures of the chipped SHOWROOM CARS...or the "toucheruppers" for that matter...There are 3 SHOWROOM CARS on Ebay that do not appear to be chipped, but I'm not sure where to look or on what cars.

Ok, please tell me if I'm crazy to be hesitant to even attempt buying new LCT without thinking that there's a real chance of the order having flaws.

Okay, you're crazy!    Seriously though, I have a whole lot of MTH/LCT tinplate (all O gauge) and have not had any cosmetic problems, and just one mechanical problem, with the items I've purchased.  By last count that's 21 locomotives and a whole lot of rolling stock that I don't really keep a count on.  Believe me, I do check everything carefully right out of the box.

Allan...I have had pleasant experiences also...I think the point here is TOP OF LINE $400-500 passenger cars CHIPPED!!!  I'm in line for GIRARD cars, and I don't wanna be the new OGR POSTER CHILD!!!

Not so much jsrfo... especially if they dont protect the trains that have metal mating surface like the BC or state car roofs.  If the roofs are attached with screws, there is less trouble possible.  

I don't think the paint is the issue. It is the contact points on parts that can move differentially, like roofs to bodies, or couplers in their pockets, etc.  The boxes get the crud beat out of them between the factory and the boat, on the boat, on the road from the terminal to the wholesaler... you get the idea.  Any time two parts are "ticked" together in transit, then chips can occur.  Just a thin "slip sheet" or protective sheet would go a long way to cushion the joint and reduce the issue.

If the paint was "flexible" then anything that touched it in the box would make a smudge or imprint in it.

I am hesitant as well... I check every thing anyway, but the hassle of doing mail order business (no matter how good the retailer) and freight costs kind of takes the , um,   Shine off it.

"I don't think the paint is the issue. It is the contact points on parts that can move differentially"

I don't know about this Rob. Take for instance the pretty LIONEL BLUE metal cages that held the SUPER 381's in place in the shippers. I had to open three (3) of these sets to get a loco that didn't have a defect (problem with the finish). But I noted on all three (3) that the paint on these metal shipping frames was just flaking off. This was on the flat surfaces - no odd angle or moving part. It had to be bad at the plant where these were assembled because there were actually flakes inside the wrap of the passenger cars. Had to brush them off with a soft bristle to make sure it wasn't paint from the cars I was buying. Fortunately the cars were fine.

I think it's either primer or drying. I'm sure MTH is as disgusted as everyone else.

Again, I question whether or not there were thin foam sheets installed between the bodies and roofs for shipment. Most opening roof cars I have seen came with the protective sheets in place. In this case it sounds like they may have been missing.

I also think may times these products are shipped too quickly out of the factory. I have seen quite a few tinplate pieces with marks in the paint that would result from something coming in contact with the paint before it's fully cured.

This again is a quality control issue.

Yes, Ron, but that can be prevented easily enough by checking things out before the money changes hands--perhaps the only way to assure customer satisfaction.  Anything short of that involves some measure of trust, and I believe that may be in rather short supply these days.

Wow, three pages on this.

I see a lot of posts here from guys that have rather large mostly modern or all modern tinplate layouts and collections. I don't think any of them have claimed that they have not seen or had this issue first hand. Not sure, but I think Allan has said he has seen the problem as well, although not personally.

If you read a series of issues like this in Consumer reports on a vacuum cleaner, TV, automobile, or toilet paper (I know my fingers go through it, but it's got a nice, purple wrapper), would you consider buying it?

It appears that the quality of the parts that make the MTH/LCT stuff is quite high. I have used them when I have needed to on some original items because they are better than those parts available from some other vendors. It would not take much on their part to correct these issues if they were interested in doing it. The way to make them interested is to hit them in the wallet, and tell them why.

Let them sit on some shipping containers full of this stuff for just six months, and they'll fix the problems. For those of you that can tolerate some defects, you'll get those items in the containers at blow out prices. And, if you think that they'll quit making tinplate, I doubt it. They have too much invested in it. You may see some of the newer items delayed or cancelled, but anything in the works, well, I think they'd correct their issues rather than lose any sunk cost completely.

I know there's the potential for some hobby shops to also be affected, and that's a shame. However, at least in my neck of the woods, you will not find any hobby shop that carries the full line of tinplate. Maybe up to a dozen items, and some of that is accessories. They'll order anything you want, with the understanding that it's yours. I doubt that they'd make you keep it, but by the time it gets there, and you inspect it, chances are, you'd have to do without. Converse to that, these guys don't want a lot of stock sitting on shelves. The SG Hiawatha I bought sat in the shop for 10 years. Anyway,  I would not assume the risk of ordering from a local shop either, and I see it little different than mail order, except that you can see the stuff prior to making final payment!

Remember that none of this is something that you really need. I feel that way about the originals as well. Once you get over the emotional attachment, it's easier to do without. Use some logic and don't let your emotions get the best of you. In the end, the products will be better, and you'll be happier.

This problem keeps me from doing business with anyone far away.  Fortunately, I deal mostly with a dealer 45 minutes away.  I never let him ship...I go there, and we have an OPENTHEBOX party!!!  The lone exception on major items would be paying 20 or 30 cents on dollar at an Auction House.  Then you takes your chances!!!  I like to TRUST people, but I know what you mean.  Life is not the same as it was back in 1972 when I started collecting.  Seems different ethics are now in play, eh???

A solid enough reason for doing business with a local shop--or even a not-quite-local one--if you have the opportunity (I realize that some/many don't have that option).  Virtually all of my train buying these days goes to one of three businesses that are within a 45-minute to one hour commuting distance, and one in particular gets nearly all of my MTH pre-orders for a variety of reasons.  I'm both lucky and happy!

When I was 11 years old my father purchased a new family car, a 1956 Chevrolet Bel-Air, 4-door sedan. She was a real beauty, for which my father paid $2,450.00. I would wash and wax the car at least weekly, and one day I noticed a series of paint chips on the drivers side inside window frame. Using some knowledge I learned from my father regarding the magic of 600 grit wet/dry paper and touch-up paint, I was able to restore the “damage” to factory new condition. I never mentioned it to my father, because I did not think it rose to the level of important discussion. As a competent 11 year old, I was already doing much bigger things.

Bob Di Stefano