Brass prices

It's happening everywhere with the lack of train shows. Prices on everyone's favorite auction site have gone up as well.

Highway robbery in my opinion!  I see a couple of locos I purchased new in the '90s for $500-600 now being listed for $2100-2500. I know times are a changin' Bob Dylan but geez.  My salary has not gone up 500% in the past 25 years so I am going to have to take a pass on buying anything brass for quite some time.

Supply and demand dictate price in a free market.     So as mentioned, if the supply of such cars is getting small, the price will be going up as long as buyers want it.

Personally, I think the favorite auction site is not a good gauge of where prices are.    Some items sometimes go way up in bid price for no apparent reason.    We can only guess that some-two both must really want the item.

On the other hand, asking silly prices often means there are not bids.    Over a year go, someone listed an old Gem PRR F3 mogul for I think about 925.     The loco was damaged, the pilot broken off and maybe some other parts.    There was no tender.    That loco was never a popular seller from the time it was new.   I bought one brand new in late 70s for 355 at the local shop.    I still  have it.    But at shows when we still had them, I see that loco on tables asking 300-350 quite often in like new shape with tenders.     Now the one the auction site was never bid on, taken down and relisted 3-4 times at the same price.    That listing was just not a good representation of what that model might sell for.    

Fluctuations in pricing may be the product of competing trends in the market:  people buying brass train models are dying off (reduced demand) and the importation of brass models has declined drastically (reduced supply). Perhaps the up/down clash of those trends is causing swings in pricing.

I believe manufacturers like Sunset have also begun to shift over to exceptionally well detailed plastic models that run like the Dickens and can be sold for about 50-70% of the cost of brass. Most of us left in the "scale" game are operators and I would rather have something on my layout that actually goes like a banshee than something on my shelf that looks pretty but may not pull worth a darn.  I sold off the vast majority of my 30 year brass collection two to three years ago.  The handful of pieces I have left are either phenomenal runners or have sentimental value.

@Cadillac Mike posted:

Highway robbery in my opinion!  I see a couple of locos I purchased new in the '90s for $500-600 now being listed for $2100-2500. I know times are a changin' Bob Dylan but geez.  My salary has not gone up 500% in the past 25 years so I am going to have to take a pass on buying anything brass for quite some time.

Well, it's not highway robbery if people are willing pay it.  I just don't understand why.

@Cadillac Mike posted:

I believe manufacturers like Sunset have also begun to shift over to exceptionally well detailed plastic models that run like the Dickens and can be sold for about 50-70% of the cost of brass. Most of us left in the "scale" game are operators and I would rather have something on my layout that actually goes like a banshee than something on my shelf that looks pretty but may not pull worth a darn.  I sold off the vast majority of my 30 year brass collection two to three years ago.  The handful of pieces I have left are either phenomenal runners or have sentimental value.

But we are talking brass freight cars here. That does create a thought I have had more than a few times though, which is I cringe whenever I see a nice layout on youtube and all of the freight cars on it are old Weaver or other plastic crap.   

@mark s posted:

Fluctuations in pricing may be the product of competing trends in the market:  people buying brass train models are dying off (reduced demand) and the importation of brass models has declined drastically (reduced supply). Perhaps the up/down clash of those trends is causing swings in pricing.

IF there is reduced demand, it isn't showing up anywhere but the swap meets.

@prrjim posted:

Supply and demand dictate price in a free market.     So as mentioned, if the supply of such cars is getting small, the price will be going up as long as buyers want it.

Personally, I think the favorite auction site is not a good gauge of where prices are.    Some items sometimes go way up in bid price for no apparent reason.    We can only guess that some-two both must really want the item.

On the other hand, asking silly prices often means there are not bids.    Over a year go, someone listed an old Gem PRR F3 mogul for I think about 925.     The loco was damaged, the pilot broken off and maybe some other parts.    There was no tender.    That loco was never a popular seller from the time it was new.   I bought one brand new in late 70s for 355 at the local shop.    I still  have it.    But at shows when we still had them, I see that loco on tables asking 300-350 quite often in like new shape with tenders.     Now the one the auction site was never bid on, taken down and relisted 3-4 times at the same price.    That listing was just not a good representation of what that model might sell for.    

Yea, like that wood out of scale caboose that they want $144 for that has been listed for at least a year now.

I thought the "supply and demand" answer was right on the mark. A well-understood phenomenon in a free market.

@oscaletrains posted:

But we are talking brass freight cars here. That does create a thought I have had more than a few times though, which is I cringe whenever I see a nice layout on youtube and all of the freight cars on it are old Weaver or other plastic crap.   

And Atlas O cars are crap? Send me all you want.

Dick

@CBQer posted:

And Atlas O cars are crap? Send me all you want.

Dick

Some of them are.  You can't take car that some railroads or car owners had and letter it for every paint scheme under the sun. Well, I guess you can if people are willing to pay you money for "models" of cars that never actually existed in the first place maybe.  But, they certainly do look nicer than a lot of stuff that runs.  I was not trying to bash "plastic" per say, just pointing out that an otherwise beautiful layout/scenery seems marred by old crappy rolling stock sometimes. Sort of like the youtube videos of modern trains you see, where the nice engines roll by and then a train of pure garbage rolls on past on the screen, all the cars marred by "graffiti" painted on them by some worthless miscreant. Just destroys the whole effect for me anyway.

The brass O scale freight cars have always been hot. $325 for anything PSC in o scale has been pretty common for a long time. At one time I sold a door and a half outside braced 50' PSC boxcar on ebay I bought at Caboose Hobbies for $1200 that was 2010 or so. The modern top stuff like Pacific Limited, Drake, Kohs, Protocraft, RY, and on and on have always been strong and north of $450. Heck at one time in the last dozen or so years the days of buying US Hobbies brass cars for $75 has been a dream. I think the we saw the high water mark for anything brass in o scale 10-15 years ago. Its all downhill from here out for production. What we need is more manufacturers to step up like in HO such as Scale Trains, Rapido, Etc. We need the o scale community to grow.

As others have mentioned, I think it’s a culmination of a perfect storm coming together, it’s not just the brass market, we’re seeing it in the 3 rail market as well,..

* no train shows/swap meets.        
* folks stuck at home not spending money on meals or other entertainment.  
* captive audiences on respected auction/for sale sights ( not just the bay).  
* ( this would be specific to the brass market) hardly any “new” high end brass coming into the market save for 3rd Rail and some smaller operations.

* it only takes two buyers to make auction fever run ramped, and clearly there’s more than 2 on most pieces I’ve seen go through the roof,....sellers see this, and instantly see gold in dem dare hills,....that’s all it takes,...

Pat

@CBQer posted:

And Atlas O cars are crap? Send me all you want.

Dick

Hi Dick, I must say this, I am finished trying to sell Atlas frieght cars I can't give them away. Selling $60 MSRP cars for $15-20 and the buyers complain about the $25 in shipping that actually cost me $35. I brought back 125 cars to Jules Johnson 2 years ago and told him to find a new seller. I love these models and have many many but what happened here I have no idea. And those of you that tell me shipping is $5-$10 and expect them packed right and in 3 days please don't tell me I'm erroneous. The market is hostile anymore and I've dropped out of it. I won't sell things to unruly buyers anymore. I'll take my toys home and leave the sandbox. Hahah

I’ll take plastic “crap” off anyone’s hands that want to get rid of it.    When I expanded into O Scale a few years ago (HO model railroaders since grade school),  I needed rolling stock and locomotives, and the plastic “crap” was cheap, and readily available.  I haven’t spent more than $30 a per car, and my most expensive plastic locomotive was maybe $150?   I’m pretty happy with what I have, and feel no need to spend $400 on a brass freight car.  In fact, it was a plastic “crap” car that sealed the deal for the move into O Scale.  Just to see what it was about, I bought an Atlas 54’ Lehigh Valley covered grain hopper on eBay for $30.   Expecting a Lionel like toy, I was amazed.  The lettering was flawless, down to print so small, I’m not sure how they did.  Correct piping on the brake equipment, and the cherry on top,  grain doors that were actually hinged to open WITH working locking handles - in crap plastic.    Now, to be sure, 100 cars later, some of the Weaver grab irons, and other details, leaves something to be desired, and not every railroad owned Northeastern cabooses either, but I can work with them, sort of like I did years ago with the HO Athearn blue box stuff.   My bigger worry, isn’t that I can’t find plastic “crap” to start with, or scratchbuild what I need, but rather, I can’t find correct, O scale decals.   That is the real problem I’m having right now,  not the cost of brass, which I am too cheap to buy anyway.    

This is the third or forth plastic “crap” O scale car I bought.  Straight out of box, $25, with a little weathering.  Plastic on corner steps is a bit thick, but if I switched to prototypically correct Tichy, running in the club environment, they would have broken off, long ago, so I’m ok with that compromise.   The Weaver IC woodchip hopper to the left was weathered to get on the rails, so I’d have some trains to play with, but eventually I’ll circle back around and replace the molded grabs with wire.

h

I have know a few brass snobs who often considered anything non-brass to  be crap.   It is an opinion and I don't agree.    These people are probably collectors of some sort and not building model railroads where they might need 20-30 H21 hoppers to operate their coal service - - or they have very deep pockets.

A modern plastic detailed scale model such an Atlas master LIne is better detailed than a lot of the older brass.   For example, an H21 hopper has all the inside rivet details what not while a USH or MG model of the same car has just reverse of the details on the outside.

Brass does have the advantage of much smaller runs, so unique cars for smaller RRs can often be produced and sold.   With the mass produced cars, they need much bigger runs to justify the tooling for injection molding or die casting.

However, the market for all O does seem to shrinking and many of us have most of what we "need" so much  of what we buy is targets of opportunity - ie really good deal, or some special we have wanted for years.

@Cadillac Mike posted:

Highway robbery in my opinion!  I see a couple of locos I purchased new in the '90s for $500-600 now being listed for $2100-2500. I know times are a changin' Bob Dylan but geez.  My salary has not gone up 500% in the past 25 years so I am going to have to take a pass on buying anything brass for quite some time.

I guess you didn't go for the brass baldwin transfer units by CLW either.

@Erik C Lindgren posted:

The brass O scale freight cars have always been hot. $325 for anything PSC in o scale has been pretty common for a long time. At one time I sold a door and a half outside braced 50' PSC boxcar on ebay I bought at Caboose Hobbies for $1200 that was 2010 or so. The modern top stuff like Pacific Limited, Drake, Kohs, Protocraft, RY, and on and on have always been strong and north of $450. Heck at one time in the last dozen or so years the days of buying US Hobbies brass cars for $75 has been a dream. I think the we saw the high water mark for anything brass in o scale 10-15 years ago. Its all downhill from here out for production. What we need is more manufacturers to step up like in HO such as Scale Trains, Rapido, Etc. We need the o scale community to grow.

Wait, what?  Someone paid you $1200 for a brass 50' PSC boxcar? 

@oscaletrains posted:

Some of them are.  You can't take car that some railroads or car owners had and letter it for every paint scheme under the sun. Well, I guess you can if people are willing to pay you money for "models" of cars that never actually existed in the first place maybe.  But, they certainly do look nicer than a lot of stuff that runs.  I was not trying to bash "plastic" per say, just pointing out that an otherwise beautiful layout/scenery seems marred by old crappy rolling stock sometimes. Sort of like the youtube videos of modern trains you see, where the nice engines roll by and then a train of pure garbage rolls on past on the screen, all the cars marred by "graffiti" painted on them by some worthless miscreant. Just destroys the whole effect for me anyway.

Well unless you are able to buy brass cars, I suppose you are right. When Atlas released their Zephyr cars for around $150 each, they were among the best built passenger cars ever made in plastic. Errors, yes, but I'm not about to spend $500 on a brass car when I can buy 3 plastic cars that were very well done.

With respect, Dick

@Cadillac Mike posted:

Highway robbery in my opinion!  I see a couple of locos I purchased new in the '90s for $500-600 now being listed for $2100-2500. I know times are a changin' Bob Dylan but geez.

I love these arguments...every time I currently pay nearly $4.00 for a loaf of bread!!

The Inflation Calculator...value of a dollar over time...is a handy perspective.

So, a $550 item in 1990 would cost $1,089 today.  Purchased for that price in 1995, today it would pinch your pocket for $934.

And that's without taking into account any rarity factors, which I believe are quite relevant to this discussion and the specific items therein.

Seems reasonable to me!

And that's why my toy-joy trains are in the Otherworld.  And, no, they're not of the ROI-moolah type.

But, TEHO.  Y'all have fun...the fundamental of this hobby.

KD

BTW...I remember a loaf of bread cost about 50¢ in 1966...the year I graduated from college and was truly and finally on my own.  Today?...$3.99 at an equivalent value of the dollar!  Bingo!

@Erik C Lindgren posted:

Hi Dick, I must say this, I am finished trying to sell Atlas frieght cars I can't give them away. Selling $60 MSRP cars for $15-20 and the buyers complain about the $25 in shipping that actually cost me $35. I brought back 125 cars to Jules Johnson 2 years ago and told him to find a new seller. I love these models and have many many but what happened here I have no idea. And those of you that tell me shipping is $5-$10 and expect them packed right and in 3 days please don't tell me I'm erroneous. The market is hostile anymore and I've dropped out of it. I won't sell things to unruly buyers anymore. I'll take my toys home and leave the sandbox. Hahah

There is one on the Bay selling Atlas cars for $99 plus $15 for freight. I wonder how many cars he does sell. I really hadn't paid a lot of attention to Atlas car prices of late. I went a little nuts on Intermountain and Red Caboose cars. I wonder since the onset of Amazon and others what pressure they have put on UPS, USPS, FedEX to force up rates for the rest of us.

Can't wait for Denver.

Dick

@oscaletrains posted:

But we are talking brass freight cars here. That does create a thought I have had more than a few times though, which is I cringe whenever I see a nice layout on youtube and all of the freight cars on it are old Weaver or other plastic crap.   

I would be more impressed if on a decent sized layout a train was pulling 15 Weaver plastic cars than if it was pulling 6 brass ones. Rich Yoder made some very nice stuff.  I wish I had sprung for his ventilated boxcar.  Still given the price it would be prohibitively expensive for most O scalers to have made a decent train of his cars.   That is without taking into consideration that some of his items were sold undecorated.

In truth I am somewhat offended by the assessment that old Weaver or other plastic is "crap".  I like the brass items I have.  I was never a brass snob though.  I am very proud of some of my plastic Weaver and Intermountain freight cars.  I am most proud of Malcolm's Southern caboose.

As for current brass prices, I wonder whether we are just paying closer attention now that we have a little more time on our hands.

I have had the opposite experience on many of my purchases last year.  I was picking up Sunset Brass P70's at $125 each when the plastic ones were selling for $150.  I found an Ajin built OMI P5a Modified for $400 because it needs the plastic tubes replaced on the drive and the grease repacking in the main gear.  It seems you just have to pay a lot of attention. 

I agree that pieces in many places are going up in price in surprising ways.  I just avoid those.  They'll be around again in time.

@Bill N posted:

I would be more impressed if on a decent sized layout a train was pulling 15 Weaver plastic cars than if it was pulling 6 brass ones. Rich Yoder made some very nice stuff.  I wish I had sprung for his ventilated boxcar.  Still given the price it would be prohibitively expensive for most O scalers to have made a decent train of his cars.   That is without taking into consideration that some of his items were sold undecorated.

In truth I am somewhat offended by the assessment that old Weaver or other plastic is "crap".  I like the brass items I have.  I was never a brass snob though.  I am very proud of some of my plastic Weaver and Intermountain freight cars.  I am most proud of Malcolm's Southern caboose.

As for current brass prices, I wonder whether we are just paying closer attention now that we have a little more time on our hands.

Ok, by plastic crap I refer to items that should be running on 3 rail tracks but have 2 rail trucks instead. The point was, why go to all the work to make a beautiful two rail layout and then fill it up with cars you pick up at a swap meet for $15.  It just ruins the effect.  That is my take on it anyway.

@oscaletrains posted:

Ok, by plastic crap I refer to items that should be running on 3 rail tracks but have 2 rail trucks instead. The point was, why go to all the work to make a beautiful two rail layout and then fill it up with cars you pick up at a swap meet for $15.  It just ruins the effect.  That is my take on it anyway.

Not every one in 2-Rail O scale can afford fleets of brass rolling stock.

Rusty

Agreed, not everyone can afford it wants brass rolling stock. I'm really enjoying building old all nation, walthers, Labelle and mainline models kits, and I enjoy saving old kit built rolling stock, and upgrading them to kadee couplers, new cast metal trucks, and a detailed underside. I'm giving them a new lease on life, and many more years of service than they might have otherwise had.

They may not have the crispest detail, but they do just fine for me.

@Erik C Lindgren posted:

The brass O scale freight cars have always been hot. $325 for anything PSC in o scale has been pretty common for a long time. At one time I sold a door and a half outside braced 50' PSC boxcar on ebay I bought at Caboose Hobbies for $1200 that was 2010 or so. The modern top stuff like Pacific Limited, Drake, Kohs, Protocraft, RY, and on and on have always been strong and north of $450. Heck at one time in the last dozen or so years the days of buying US Hobbies brass cars for $75 has been a dream. I think the we saw the high water mark for anything brass in o scale 10-15 years ago. Its all downhill from here out for production. What we need is more manufacturers to step up like in HO such as Scale Trains, Rapido, Etc. We need the o scale community to grow.

I have to concur with the OP on the shock when those PSC 15865/16001 reefers sold for $325 - I looked and I paid $100, $145 and $165 for those Lhee Do R-30-12 cars which is what they routinely go for at shows and online.   And the prices of most all the cars offered from that vendor slowly crept up from the initial offerings... once they saw the cars selling the prices jumped up by $15-$25 increments.     And the good stuff like PL, Drake, Protocraft, RY and KMW holds its value very well and the sale prices from the aforementioned vendor proved that.   Sure seemed like stuff was selling.

I do concur, O scale needs a Rapido or BLI or Kato and the superdetailed RTR track to run it on to grow like HO and N.   

And I do think that O scale can be done on a budget given the proliferation of quality stuff for a reasonable price like Weaver, Intermountain kits and many of the older basswood kits that a lot of us cut our train teeth on. 

Surely there aren't as many well detailed RTR diesels in O as in HO and much of the popular roads steam (i.e. PRR) is older and not nearly as accurate or well detailed as even the inexpensive stuff of recent but admittedly 3rd Rail and Sunset has certainly kicked up the O scale renaissance that Atlas started with their Big O line years ago.

Brass ain't dead yet.

@oscaletrains posted:

Ok, by plastic crap I refer to items that should be running on 3 rail tracks but have 2 rail trucks instead. The point was, why go to all the work to make a beautiful two rail layout and then fill it up with cars you pick up at a swap meet for $15.  It just ruins the effect.  That is my take on it anyway.

As I recall when Weaver got into O it was producing kits for the two rail market.  I think the plan was to be the Athearn of the O scale market.  They moved into three rail RTR later.   If you look at Weaver 3 rail trucks it shows they were originally designed to be 2 rail and then the coupler was added on top.  The reason that you could pick up Weaver cheap at swap meets wasn't because it was poorly made.  It was because unlike brass it was mass produced.   Their level of detail improved significantly over the years.

Intermountain's story was similar except that they were highly detailed from the start.  It got into O producing plastic kits for 2 rail and then added dummy couplers and fast angle wheels so their kits could easily be adapted for three rail use.   They even had the coupler on top of the truck like Weaver did.  In their last days in O they began producing RTR cars with Weaver trucks and couplers for the 3 rail market.

Red Caboose probably would have done the same thing if the competition in the 3 rail market hadn't gotten so great.  AtlasO was originally designed to be able to operate as well on 2 and 3 rail.  MTH was the only player that started out as 3 rail and then modified its product for 2 rail operation.

@Rusty Traque posted:

Not every one in 2-Rail O scale can afford fleets of brass rolling stock.

Rusty

Agreed, just saying that a great layout can be marred by crappy rolling stock in videos.

@adferraro posted:

Agreed, not everyone can afford it wants brass rolling stock. I'm really enjoying building old all nation, walthers, Labelle and mainline models kits, and I enjoy saving old kit built rolling stock, and upgrading them to kadee couplers, new cast metal trucks, and a detailed underside. I'm giving them a new lease on life, and many more years of service than they might have otherwise had.

They may not have the crispest detail, but they do just fine for me.

And any of those look better than what you see on a lot of layout videos.

@Rule292 posted:

I have to concur with the OP on the shock when those PSC 15865/16001 reefers sold for $325 - I looked and I paid $100, $145 and $165 for those Lhee Do R-30-12 cars which is what they routinely go for at shows and online.   And the prices of most all the cars offered from that vendor slowly crept up from the initial offerings... once they saw the cars selling the prices jumped up by $15-$25 increments.     And the good stuff like PL, Drake, Protocraft, RY and KMW holds its value very well and the sale prices from the aforementioned vendor proved that.   Sure seemed like stuff was selling.

I do concur, O scale needs a Rapido or BLI or Kato and the superdetailed RTR track to run it on to grow like HO and N.  

And I do think that O scale can be done on a budget given the proliferation of quality stuff for a reasonable price like Weaver, Intermountain kits and many of the older basswood kits that a lot of us cut our train teeth on.

Surely there aren't as many well detailed RTR diesels in O as in HO and much of the popular roads steam (i.e. PRR) is older and not nearly as accurate or well detailed as even the inexpensive stuff of recent but admittedly 3rd Rail and Sunset has certainly kicked up the O scale renaissance that Atlas started with their Big O line years ago.

Brass ain't dead yet.

Brass at high prices sure sell fast at that vendor it seems.  Makes ebay look like a bargain a lot of the time.

@Rusty Traque posted:

Not every one in 2-Rail O scale can afford fleets of brass rolling stock.

Rusty

And it takes a lot more than a fleet of brass to make a good looking or great layout, too.

Shot this picture at a local train show some years ago.  It was the only 2 Rail O Scale there.  I think that "crappy plastic" rolling stock looks pretty good.

Rusty

I just saw a Wasatch Union Pacific Dome Diner go for $1,133.00 on ebay.  The box had mold on the outside and the diaphrams appeared to be pulled off.

@adferraro posted:

Agreed, not everyone can afford it wants brass rolling stock. I'm really enjoying building old all nation, walthers, Labelle and mainline models kits, and I enjoy saving old kit built rolling stock, and upgrading them to kadee couplers, new cast metal trucks, and a detailed underside. I'm giving them a new lease on life, and many more years of service than they might have otherwise had.

They may not have the crispest detail, but they do just fine for me.

I concur.  I have collected enough All Nation 64' coaches that closely replicate CNJ coaches to finally do a reasonably accurate commuter train as well as an accurate Blue Comet which one never sees in O scale these days.  I have several Walthers cars that very nice.

The key to making these  kits look good is patience to spend the time on good craftsmanship.

However, on the contrary, I should have dropped that $325 P Company D78 diner that sold on a buy it now in 6 hours.  It was so detailed.....

@VGN64 posted:

I just saw a Wasatch Union Pacific Dome Diner go for $1,133.00 on ebay.  The box had mold on the outside and the diaphrams appeared to be pulled off.

What about that PSC SP business car that went for 2K just b4 Christmas.  Lot of people with real money out there.

So I have seen the arguments on here that the $500 brass model in 1990 would be around $1,000 today because of inflation. I get it but let's look at the buying power of our US dollars.  I am truly one of those people that make the "regular" middle income here in the midwest.  In 1990 I made about $25k per year, I now make about $39k.  My wages have not doubled yet the prices of most things have.  People say, "get more education, move to where the jobs are, etc."  Easy to do when you do not have kids in school, family attachments or the US military says you go where I say you go not to mention the fact that nobody wants to hire someone on the verge of retirement.  We tend to oversimplify things in many cases. I agree that supply/demand and the free economy are at play here.  I support that , I defended that for a decade as a Seabee but I am not in the position to spend that kind of money for a hobby that seems to sadly be in decline as we all drift off into retirement and beyond....

@mwb posted:

And it takes a lot more than a fleet of brass to make a good looking or great layout, too.

I am not saying you need a fleet of brass.  There are lots of descent plastic and urethane cars available that don't look like 3 rail cars on 2 rail trucks.