Bus and feeder questions

How big is the layout? I wouldn't use 18 gauge. For the short distance from the terminal block to the transformer you don't need 12 gauge. Can you go under and locate the terminal block in the center of the layout? I would definitely use the star approach, particularly for when you add DCS. 

Ok, I saw your layout on another post. The buss approach will work for you. Think of the buss like your plumbing. A main supply that you connect to for faucets. No long runs back to the meter.

You install 8 position terminal blocks around the layout. Then run the lines are needed in various colors in 12g . One Black will be used for the common or U terminal for all connections.

Then from each terminal block, run 16g feeders to the track terminals. These should be every 3'-4'.

Now it depends if you will have separate power divisions or all one. For an all command layout you'll need one track power(red), a common(black) and an accessory power.(any color)

Thanks Moonman for posting my layout pic up, its the old one, but close enough. The major change is that instead of a siding, I'm running an inside loop of 0-60.

I see where you have put the terminal blocks.  Why am I placing terminal blocks around the layout to begin with?

As I trying to understand ( without being to obtuse) I run the main bus wire around the layout, but not a closed loop.

I have a drop down in the middle of the bottom portion of the track, so I was going to end it there.

Then I would run feeder lines from the 3 lines of track all the way around the layout.

I have accessories that are placed on the inside loops, so I figured I would run a separate bus and feeder for those.

Again, all running back to the transformer.

But why the terminals?

Bryan

Thanks Rick O, I've twice now forgotten to mention what I'm going to run.

I have a Fastrack layout, Z-4000 Transformer and will be running mostly the newer Thomas and friends RTR stuff.  I also have a few older TMCC engines and a few PW engines , I also have a LL MTH Distant Freight with the little remote control.

The accessories are log lumber, sawmill, barrel loader, ice depot, culvert loader/unloader and the magnetic crane.  Enough to keep the 4 and 7 and 43 y/o old happy

The layout appears to be around the wall with walking space in the center. The terminal blocks are under the center of the tracks. The power buss runs from transformer-to-block -to block. Then the feeders connect from each terminal block. You do need places to connect the connect the feeder wires to the buss.

Edit: see Dewey's reply- It's like your water pipe from the meter and drops where needed with no return to the meter.

This photo shows seven different power runs and 1 common on the bus. The drops or feeders connect to the appropriate power and the common.

Well I've read and read and read.  I've updated what I hope is my current layout.  This is actually what is on the layout.

I went out earlier today to the local electrical supplier and asked for 8 position terminal strips he walked me over to a bin of '12' position....  Ugh, this is going wrong already, so I left and re-read this post again along with a few other ( Lionel website) and figured I'd try again tomorrow.

I can't wrap my head around the use of the terminal strip... I know it shouldn't be that difficult, I really don't understand how it works in conjunction with the bus wire.

I have watched the modular video a few times, and its not clicking.  Went to the two local LHS in the area and asked about bus wiring and terminal strips and well, that was a good drive anyways....

I am going to leave this for the next while and work on some other aspect of the layout and then re visit this topic.

Bryan, it may help to think of your Buss wiring as an interstate highway where the track power enters the terminal strips that act as exits for track taps, and the transformer power continues on down the highway.

Does this page help?  Buss Wiring  Start at the track tap wiring diagram a little more than half way down the page and read up.

Interstates--good analogy of Bus and Drop wire runs Susan.

Its getting clearer friends.  I drew out a diagram and it is making a little more sense.

This is what I did;  1)Two main bus wires - Black/ Red. ( Hot and Ground) It starts at the ZW transformer and run the length of the track and dead ends to the left of the rectangle box in my diagram ( this represents my drop down entrance)

Then I drew drops or feeders for each track line, some areas for the two lines and then where I have 3 lines one more set of feeder wires.  I have 8-10 feeder locations around the layout.

I will then use suitcase connectors to tie in the feeders to the bus lines.  I will also use different colour feeder wires to help keep the lines somewhat colour coded.

This system I understand and makes sense to me. I would feel comfortable wiring the layout this way.

Is there any reason why this won't work?  I will run conventional, the new Lionel LionChief RTR sets and then finally TMCC and maybe Legacy one day.

This system does not incorporate the use of barrier strips at all.  I have left those out because I don't understand the 'benefit' of using these.  I see lots of pictures of wiring and wires into a barrier strip but none showing a layout using these  from beginning to the end.

Thanks for your patience....  I am learning.

Bryan

 As I mentioned earlier Bryan,there is no "benefit" to using a terminal strip for TMCC/legacy or conventional operation. It would just be an added component.

The primary reason for using a terminal strip is that DCS performs most reliably with equal lengths of wire going to the track from the DCS TIU located as "centrally" as possible.This is known as "star or home run" wiring.

With DCS it is also recommended that so many feet of track be supplied by one pair of feeders, so the layout is broken into isolated sections each with its own feeders going back to the terminal strip which is connected to the TIU.

It all has to do with the way DCS communicates with the loco directly through the hot rail. Having said that, there are folks running DCS through a buss and have no problems, there are always a few exceptions to the rule.

None of that applies to tmcc/legacy or conventional.

TMCC/Legacy use radio signals rather than communicating directly through the rail.It does not have a preferred wiring style.

My 10'x16' ( actually somewhat similar to yours in many aspects) layout is done with the buss and feeders with suitcase connectors as I described above. Feeders are every 8'-10', yards and sidings are isolated with their own feeders, and only the hot feeder on a toggle so I can remove power to any locomotive(s) stored there.Trains run perfect.

You could run two transformer wires to a terminal strip and run feeders to the track from there, but it is not required, and your trains will not operate any different.

Bottom line, a terminal strip is only necessary if your considering DCS , if not its just a different way of getting power to your layout. 

With Lionel TMCC/legacy, track feeders are primarily for reliable power delivery.

With MTH DCS the track feeders are about reliable power delivery as well as good 2 way communication with the locomotives.

For a minimal difference in material and effort, why not do star wiring (for future DCS), just in case MTH makes an engine that the others don't and you "just gotta have it!".

Just my 2 cents,

Ed

Bryan,

That will get you running trains and you are comfortable with it-it's your rr, do what you want.

You may want to pull a color for each channel of the ZW and a black for common.

Then, when you decide you want to run two trains or more at the same time, you can create power divisions.

At least pull 3 wires, two colors and a common, one for track, one for accessory voltage. The splice connectors will work.

Makes sense to me to keep railpower separate from turnout or accessory power:

Typically I run a railpower Bus and one Bus each for accessories/lighting and turnouts[which in my case is VDC for Tortoise].

Wire expense was memtioned above.  Del City is about %150 the cost of local electrical supplyhouse wire.  500' of 14 should be available for .07.  12 ga .11 or better.

After 500 the price drop levels off a bit around here.  I find that buying 50 or 100 feet of wire is extreamly expensive. 

There is a guy in the dealers hall @ York that has somewhat decent prices on smaller spools.

I find multiple colors helpful for busy control panels.

For a minimal difference in material and effort, why not do star wiring (for future DCS), just in case MTH makes an engine that the others don't and you "just gotta have it!".  Ed

Ditto, Wiring a layout excluding a particular major player (DCS) does not allow future flexibility.   Much like using unecessarily small diameter curves because that is all your present engines need.  No one can guarantee their desires in time to come.  tt

Tom,

I certainly appreciate your experience and logic. You have to remember we are working on a small layout, one off project with space and cost constraints.

I was able to wire a 15' x 10' L-shape layout with a five wire buss including terminal blocks, and connectors and shipping for $77. Track drops every 3 feet on three lines and accessory and switch drops. That's about the same as two 500' spools. I couldn't touch that price at any local supplier.

The small layout builder doesn't need extra wire around when those funds can be used for other needed materials, trains, accessories and such or even the train room.

That's my perspective and what I based my recommendation upon. I used 16g. I'll have to go to the nearby commercial electrical supplier. Perhaps 14g, being standard for building use would be less expensive from them.

Again, thanks for your experienced advice.

Some folks may consider ganging up for wire purchases.  I group wire purchases so as to keep a stock of a wide array of colors.  Normally, small rolls are usually only availble in four or so colors.  500' rolls are available in 12 colors locally.  Sharing purchases could allow many colors for each person.

However, there are other ways to code wires.  In my previous aircraft work every wire was white with a black part number rolled onto the insulation.

Other wire marking I use are colored tape bandings at each end and along the run. 

In addition to that I use number bands on the ends and number stickers for remarking some terminals.

When the harness gets real busy with same color combination pairs I use multiple tape stripes or alternate color stripes to differentiate circuits.

Something else that helps is predrilling a pattern of wire management holes in the cross members wherein only certain circuits run consistantly thru a specific row of holes.   I usually bore a row of wire management holes for each main line in the vicinity of that right of way then a row of holes along each main for turnouts or accessory power that pertain to that track.

Something else to consider is to pre engineer as much of the wiring schematic as you can so as to prewire the benchwork before the decking goes down.  Much easier to pull what ever you can standing up.

In any event we all do things differently and there is rarely ever a patently wrong way to have fun.