Cab 2 serial addon to run lionmaster

It should be fairly straight-forward for Lionel to create a box that talks to one or more of the LionChief or LionChief Plus locomotives and interfaces to the Legacy base.  It would be a cool addition.

So why buy a LC+ if you have the full legacy system?  Why not by an equivalent TMCC engine?

Just asking not judging, but it seem like Lionel built these to fill a niche for conventional guys.  If you have a full Legacy or even Cab-1L your getting more bank, for a little more cash with Full TMCC or Legacy engines.  G

Shawn has it, it's simply a matter of price.  Or, if you have kids, relatives, or friends with LionChief or LionChief Plus equipment, you can run them with your remote on your layout.

Shawn,  The LC+ engine MSRP near $400.  The TMCC engine of equivalent size and capability are around $429-499 MSRP.  Leftover TMCC engine can be less.  If you upgrade you lose the LC items anyway.

I am not talking about upgrading, but rather buying a TMCC engine.  It actually has more features and capability.  G

Not quite, but exactly my point.  LC+ is for conventional ops and a niche fill.  Folks are now asking for the LC+ to be operated by Legacy, and to have the remote control switches remotely.  That is CAB-1L and Legacy.  Add all those features what will the cost be, and what would the difference be between a LC+, TMCC or Legacy.

Why not just make the LC+ remote function like a CAB-1L, or make the Cab-1L look like the LC+ remote with a dip switch for engine numbers.

Other than a niche for some, it is also a marketing tool that has folks rebuying engine they already have to get LC and LC+.   Funny stuff in my humble opinion.  G

Shawn,  Street price for TMCC and even Legacy is less too.  I just use it as the document value assigned by the manufacturer for comparison.

Your point is exactly mine.  The single operator who has Command, shouldn't be buying LC+ for themselves when equivalent TMCC engines are available at a slightly higher cost for the added features.

Not sure why Lionel who builds a LC+ for $400 and a TMCC for $500 would make a box for one time cost of X to control LC+ from TMCC/Legacy.  If they did no one would buy TMCC engines.

Here is an older example.  28000 Series Hudson/Pacific (which I am told the LC+ are based on).

TMCC and RS 4.0 with die cast engine and tender.  Equivalent size of the PW2046/56 which is bigger than any of the Junior Hudson.  Full function control of sounds, smoke, coupler via TMCC.  Battery back up for Sounds.  Works on conventional or TMCC.

MSRP $499.  Bought new $285.  Added Cruise control $64.  Total cost $349.

Upgradeable Pacific.  Same die cast engine tender.  MSRP $399, bough new $165.  Added R2LC and remote Coupler $50.  Currently has signal sounds, but now fully Command Controlled.  Total $215.

I have a LC PE set.  Used for Christmas Tree.  Perfect fit for that.  But if I wanted a new Equivalent Engine I think the extra $50 is worth the cost for the Full TMCC.  Especially if you already have the Command System.

I think what folks are really after is Less expensive engines and control systems with all the features available.

Lionel has 6 systems now.  Conventional, LC, LC+, TMCC, CAB-1L, Legacy.  G

Like no one saw this coming.

"Lionel, legacy is too expensive and too complicated as are the locos". "How about a simpler less expensive remote control and locomotive?" "Oh wait, maybe not that simple and inexpensive, can we bump up the features/capability just a bit?"

Many of the current "lioncheif" locos were previously offered as semi scale tmcc locos just a few years ago with sounds and features  noticably better than "lionchief".

TMCC Berkshire Jr

Mikado Jr

I thinks its time for Lionel to offer products designed to each individuals preferences. "****ed if the do, ****ed if they don't" is an understatement at this point.

At current prices, Lion Chief Plus diesels are about $100-150 less than Legacy.  That's significant money for some people.  Plus (pun intended) you don't need to spring for $300-400 for Legacy itself, since the loco comes with the remote that is needed.  Not that complicated to understand, at least for some of us . 

No one is putting a gun to anyone's head and saying "you cannot have the Legacy loco if you want one."

I'm sure if Lionel or a third party thinks the market is there, a middleware solution that can enable the Legacy command base to talk to the spread spectrum 2.4 GHz Lionel Lion Chief receivers will come about.  It's not stupid by any means; it's marketing different products for different needs/consumers.

Clearly GGG, you are not a potential customer for the interface box.

True, I run TMCC engines.  The PE LC is confined to the tree layout.

Rick, I agree.  I think it was marketing strategy and a good one to get new sales.  Unfortunately it has created some misinformation causing folks to buy it and than look for upgraded capability, that actually exist in TMCC engines (other than the simple remote).

Landsteiner, the cost difference for TMCC is not that much.  Having said that, this is a topic about folks wanting to control LC engines with Legacy that they already have.  Or in other post, folks want the LC remote to control switches and other features, already part of the TMCC or Legacy package.  No one said it was stupid.   G

FWIW, I'm not really a candidate for such a product either.  However, I can visualize such a need by some folks.  I wouldn't buy a LC or LC+ locomotive just to run with my Legacy system, I'd buy a Legacy one instead.

I could see the usefulness of a interface box between LC and Legacy. Mainly in the area of collision avoidance. If a inexperienced person is running a LC engine on a Legacy/TMCC layout, it would be nice to know you could control the LC engine from the Legacy remote should the need arise. 

While not convenient at time, that red halt button pretty much stops any collisions.  G

"Landsteiner, the cost difference for TMCC is not that much."

Let's just accept that there are two mutually incompatible views on this subject. Lion Chief Plus is not designed for those who want high end sound and command and high end scale details.  And it is not for those who are willing and able to pay the price for those high end features. 

Lion Chief locos are available for as little as $140 in the RTR  2014 catalog.  Legacy locos start at around $450-500 for diesels and, and in past catalogs, at least $600 or more for steamers.  Not exactly the same market.

My analysis suggests the price difference between Legacy and Lion Chief Plus is always $100-150 and usually much greater.  In the Lionel Signature catalog, a Lion Chief Plus GP7 diesel has a MSRP of $329.99, a 2-8-2 Mikado steamer is $429.99.  The exact same diesels or steamers are not available in this catalog with Legacy (nor will they ever be, I'd guess), but a GP35 with Legacy is $499.99 and a Legacy Heavy Mikado is $1299.99. 

Thus the Lion Chief Plus line is a giant step down in cost from much more highly detailed, full boat command equipped Legacy locos of similar prototype.  Thus the intended audience is entirely different in terms of financials as well as function/appearance.  Why would anyone want a relatively economical, semi-scale loco to be equipped with high end command and sound that would cost at least $100-150 more?  I cannot think of a single reason.  The argument that Lionel could have put Legacy in these locos for less than $100-150 more is not sustainable. And obviously, putting Legacy in a Lion Chief loco would necessitate an additional 2-3 hundred dollar expense for Legacy remote and command base for an intended customer who would not be expected to already possess that equipment.

"No one said it was stupid. "

I must have misinterpreted this comment by Shawn :

"It is stupid for a single operator running multiple lionchief engines."

Like I've stated in several places here on the forums, I would be in for a device that would allow me to control LionChief and LC+ locomotives from my Cab remotes.  I just hope they get the Legacy command sets shipped before they introduce the LC/LC+ bridge.

Just to be clear, I'd be happy to see a Legacy to Lion Chief bridge device, for those who want to use both types of locos. 

I just don't see the wisdom of burdening those who only want the limited cost and features of the Lion Chief Plus or Lion Chief technology with the costs of full boat Legacy, both in terms of the locos,  and in having to buy a Legacy or 1-L command set,  when they don't want or need that level of technology.  Keeping the hobby more affordable for those who have more limited interests or financial resources is a big part of Lionel getting people interested in the hobby in the first place, and it being sustainable for them.

Not if you have a LionChief coming up behind you, they don't listen to that red button.   This would be a reason for the interface.

Gee, and here I though my years as an Aerospace consultant specializing in fuel systems and cockpit instrumentation made me a model train expert!  Where did I go wrong...

Actually it does, because I use a ZW-C and Power Master controlled by command.  So when I hit Halt track power goes to Zero and everything stops on all 4 loops.  But it some one has non command controlled track power your correct.    G

I'd venture to say that a lot more people have non-command controlled power than have command controlled power. 

I am not sure our opinions are that much different.  You just like to compare the cheapest RTR run LC not LC+ unit to the highest end Legacy.

This whole issue was about LC+ which are mid point price engines.  So the LC+ $429 MSRP steam is compared to a $499 or $529 TMCC steam.  Everything Lionel has a street price.  G

Shawn,  You said a lot and some of my comments were taken out of context.  This is marketing and profit margin.  TMCC is not going obsolete, ERR has modified all the boards and even the latest Legacy sound boards have been reworked for RS.  Can Lionel drop TMCC certainly.  Can they determine LC wasn't as profitable and drop the line, certainly.  Any manufacturer can.

I am  just comparing capability.  As a tech I understand the hardware.  Pull the electronics out of the LC+ and an equivalent TMCC engine and you have the exact same residual frame.  Same motor, same running gears, shell, detail etc...  Sure there might be a minor cost saving measure like removing the wire hand rail and having it molded into the shell.

To me, this is like some folks buying a car that has 3 levels of features.  You only can afford or want level one, except you want the stereo that comes with Level 3.  You just don't want to pay for the extra stuff that comes with Level 3.  Car manufactures won't sell that stereo separately.  It induces cost in tracking manufacturing, and it is a selling point to force you to buy level 3.

MTH has only released 2 versions of trains.  Full command control via PS-2 that runs conventional or Command.  And Conventional trains (LocoSound or some cheap BRU controlled engines).  The price difference has been about $40 to $60 between a Command Set or the LocoSound set.

DCS is the top of the Line command set.  They have released less capable command systems for HO, and Sets to give more control and entice you to by DCS.

You don't see folks saying they are selling there DCS system to buy the Remote CDR.  It is almost always the other way.

Lionel strategy is different in my opinion.  Hi end Legacy, mid range CAB-1L, and LC+, Conventional.  Problem is folks are selling Legacy to get CAB-1L.  I think the plan would have been to get hobbyist to buy LC+, fall in love and than upgrade to Legacy or CAB-1L.  And start buying TMCC/Legacy engines.  The problem, is you get just enough nice capability with LC+ at a lower cost.  This has some folks thinking about ignoring command in my opinion.

My only real point was for a person with a Command system already, they can do some shopping and probably get a more capable engine at or just above the LC+ price point. G

"So the LC+ $429 MSRP steam is compared to a $499 or $529 TMCC steam"

When was the last time Lionel catalogued a $499 or $529 2-8-4 or similar size steam loco with TMCC or Legacy? 

I have no idea, but I don't think it will be happening again soon .  I'd guess the next Legacy release of a "non-0-8-0" type road steam loco will be at least $599, if not more. Time will tell.  But Lionel's main goal, of making a more affordable command featured semi-scale steam loco that, in particular, under-prices the competition (Williams, MTH Rail King) has been achieved.

Shawn,  You are now misrepresenting facts.  I stated my opinion, we disagree.  G

That may be true, and again I fully agreed that this filled a niche for Lionel and part of it's customer base.  BUT again, I find it hard to believe folks with Legacy or CAB-1L/TMCC are going to continue to buy LC+ engines and have a pile of remotes on the table.  If they do, Lionel may notice that their TMCC/Legacy engines aren't being bought in the same quantity as before.  I imagine if manufacturing quotas can't be met that might have an impact.  Time will tell.

Folks may not realize it, but car manufactures can make a larger profit selling a $25K truck than selling a $30K car.  In the end, company profitability will drive these adventures in marketing  G