Can anyone explain Lionel's new remote control system?(Lionel's response on Page 3)

Mike, when you have stater set x with lets say a steam engine such as an 080 and its lettered in a christmas theme that year. Then the next years offering is a set with a pennsy 080. Same engine just new paint scheme. Will these two engines have the same freuquency? As of now a rs3 santa fe has a different frequency than a thomas engine or 080. But what happenes when over time many rs3 or 080 get made with new road names. Are there unlimited frequencies so to speak? Does this question make sense to you? Also how far away does the remote work in relationship to the specific engine? Many guys say they will take the thomas and such sets to trains shows and let the kids run them.great only what about this happening. It would probably be rare but lets say two guys have these thomas engines ( or two of the same engines)running on layouts next to each other in the hall. ClubX next to ClubZ layout. How far apart must they be so the other guys not controlling the other guys engine. I realize this is going to be small but it could happen. Just asking.

Personally I think this thread is a demonstrable example of being enamored with technology to the point of missing the point that these are not marketed to adults.

 

Children could care less about the compatibility of this versus that.

 

It seems ironic to me that more realistic engines and complicated software systems are tied hand and foot to each other and yet the non realistic childrens toy are the object of the adults compatibility issues. They are not meant for adults..hello?

 

 Being enamored of software driven trains sort of reflects the more and more software driven world of I phones etc that are derided for taking imagination out of play, putting children into synthetic worlds instead of the real world play we had, pushing toy trucks, etc.

 

The classic toys that have had amazing longevity are simple, not complicated and this fact seems to be lost on adults. Lionel has tried to bridge two worlds while remaining simple in concept. 

 

Anyone care for a DCC controlled Slinky?

"Anyone care for a DCC controlled Slinky?"

Almost spewed my coffee all over the screen.  Well said on many of the points.

You have to remember....there is a difference between "making a statement" and "stating an opinion". 

 

TEX

Steve

LionelZW2012,

Those are great questions! Let me try to answer them.

 

In respect to frequencies, yes, we recognize that each loco in a set with a different product SKU will have a different frequency. Each year we catalog a set we typically change the SKU of that set. As a result we will need to be diligent that the locomotive road number is in fact different from the previous year's locomotive, especially if it shares the same road name and potentially the same deco scheme as well.

 

The distance of the remote from the train is 60 feet.

 

Club atmosphere (I was actually waiting for this question to come up!). Let's be realistic; it is an entry level set, it has limitations, using the same set on two different layouts in a show environment will result in one remote controlling both locos on separate layouts. Unlike Legacy which was developed with 9 unique Cab/Base channels, the LionChief system does have some limitations in a show environment.

 

Thanks for posting your questions!

Mike

Chuck,

Would that DCC controlled Slinky have configuration variables? I think I would like to program mine to climb the stairs!

 

Mike

Mike

I highly recommend the book "How To Troubleshoot Your Slinky" or maybe "Slinky For Dummies" The chapter I found to be very helpful is "Why My Slinky Won't Smoke"

Bruce

I think Lionel is missing what some of you are saying.  Some people no matter what set up they use like to buy and run the conventional ready to run sets, whether you have the Legacy or only run one at a time does not matter.  Personally for a company that is trying to expand the hobby I would not be alienating customers at the same time I am expanding it.  Take a note from MTH's remote system, it is a box outside the train between the transformer/power supply and track. Yes that means one engine on a track, but you can still run that train anyway you want.  Personally I own a lot of Lionel but most of my trains are from the ready to run catalog and lower end offerings and are not the high end Legacy.  This new remote system dropped what is usually a $2000 or more order between my brother and I to our local dealer for this catalog down to about $600 and that has a lot to do with us both ordering presidents boxcars.  A switch on the bottom of the engine and an e-unit circuit board could not have added much cost to these engines to expand while holding your current customers.

Brian

How can you alienate a six year old?

Bruce

We "experienced" hobbiests are not the primary people who these sets at directed at.  They are aimed at the parent or other relative looking to get something entertaining for the kids.

 

Again, folks make the assumption that every kid given a train set is destined to become a model railroader.

 

Some kids will remain interested in the hobby, but to many these sets (and others) will simply become the toys of youth as they grow up and move on to other interests.

 

Rusty

I thihk he probably meant regular hobbiests who may like some of the new sets but don't want to be chained to using the remote control.

 

At least one member (might have been Jerry, but I could be mistaken) commented that he liked the new Area 51 RS-3 set, but wasn't thrilled with the idea of needing to use a remote to control it.

I'm rather puzzled. Lionel hasn't stopped making traditional conventionally controlled sets.  Why object to progress or a new concept being introduced?  These sets are lower in cost to produce and sell, have more features, introduce a functional command technology to the least expensive sets (I'm guessing it's spread spectrum rather than frequency specification) and expand the approaches to controlling locomotives. It's an expansion of the line, not a contraction of the line of products.

 

As for MTH's set handset/power technology, if you examine it in detail, it has the same types of relatively minor issues of compatibility with conventional transformers (it won't work if you lose the controller), operating multiple locos simultaneously (you can't unless you have the full feature DCS), etc.  It's impossible to make everything made totally compatible with everything else ever made .

 

 

quote:

I'm rather puzzled.

No need to be. It's easy.

You have a clientele here with an average age of AARP acting like a bunch of 4th grade hall monitors. 

7.) Consider this scenario; you have a relative or neighbor who receives a LionChief set, they want to operate on your railroad. Doesn't matter if you run conventional, TMCC, LEGACY or DCS, their loco will operate 100% on your railroad with no problems, better yet, they use their own remote to control "their" train.

Only if I set my conventional transformer to 18 volts, then they have full control of their train while mine rockets around the layout at a breakneck speed. You do realize a lot  of us train folks don't use either Lionels or MTH proprietary systems but run conventional, that is what is troublesome here to many of us.

If eventually all of the starter sets are either a base entry remote system or a full blown system (which is where this is probably going) then us conventional guys are stuck with buying a base entry set like the Polar Express or an expensive locomotive and then having to gut it out and rewire it so we can use it.

Lionel really should have put a switch on board to allow an option.

Jerry

I'm not alienating a six year old.  At five years old I could use a 1031 transformer.  I am simply saying why alienate any bit of who buy the trains? a switch and a circuit board inside appear simple enough to add to keep both ends happy.  I have another 20 years until I can even apply for an AARP card also.  Maybe with all the AARP age buyers and Lionel only concerned with the AARP age group and the 6 year olds, Lionel wants to be only a beginner ready to run set provider.  It will be easy the only catalog they will have to put out a year is already out.  Most people around my area that are my age are buying MTH, the way I see it any introduction of a new idea to more people into the hobby is great as long as you are not at the same time turning others away.  Lionel really needs to be more concerned with quality control.  The number of their Pennsy Flyer sets with the 0-4-0 steam engine that had the front cowling and coupler snapped off in Macy's displays a few years back did not help sell the product.

 

Think back to you first trains, it was not about how fancy you could control it, but about play value.  Lionel needs to start putting play value in freight sets, automobile loaders milk cars, dump cars, etc.  That will get more into the hobby at a young age.  Then again we are talking about 6 years on a product that is stamped for ages 14 and up....at that point just make it a video game and you can sell it.  I have helped several family friends get trains for their kids that are ages 4-8.  It is not that kids this age can not run the transformers or do not want trains.  Visibility of the product is one problem, and I do not mean putting the cheapest set in a store or marking it up in retail store so the store can make a huge profit.  A few eye catching sets, some add on cars, and add on track packs in stores would help along with a better marketing strategy than just putting catalogs in hobby stores and attending a few Hobby shows.

 

You are also faced with the next issue, a kid gets a set and wants to expand to a few more cars maybe an engine.  Dad takes him to a show he was lucky enough to get a whisper of and buys an engine or a set break up and gets home and it is conventional controlled and he has no normal transformer to run it with, just straight 18 volts full power derail into the wall.  That will be a disappointment to a child.

 

Remote as a way to get kids into the hobby, great, but make the engines all backwards compatible.  Not all your sales can be fueled by movies like the polar express, so build off current sales do not lose some to gain some.

There are still conventional sets in the catalog.

 

There is no indication that Lionel or anyone else is abandoning the conventional operators.

 

This is just a response to get new blood into the hobby!

 

These sets are not aimed at established buyers!

There are no switches/options for conventional control as these add cost/complexity and are meaningless to the true target audience.

So this Lionel starter-set system will be somewhat similar to the GeoTrax remote-control train-toys, by having a dedicated remote controller which is visually keyed to one locomotive. But the locos will use constant voltage 18vac or 18vdc track power instead of on-board battery power, and will have variable speed control (in steps?). There has been a lot of discussion to wade through here.

 

Any word on the size and appearance of the remote controls, how many batteries they will use, and expected battery life? Will they maybe have a docking station for recharging, or would that add too much to the cost?

Lets hope this technology works and sells well for Lionel its good for the hobby.

People on this forum including me are hard core train addicts, the average kid/family who will be playing with this could care less what system it uses Legacy or tmcc etc..

 

 

"Lionel really should have put a switch on board to allow an option."

 

Perhaps Lionel considered this and either (a) there's little or no room for an electronic E-unit and switch in some of these smaller locos and/or (b) they felt the number of individuals such as yourself who would demand such a combination was too small to justify the increase in price of 20-30 dollars (or whatever) that would be necessary?  That is, they might lose more sales to price sensitive novice consumers than they would gain by appealing to long time hobbyists such as yourself.

You must have stopped reading after #7.

 

8.) Now, you conventional guys! be honest, how many times do you run more than 1 conventional loco on the same track at the same time? (with full directional control, not a locked out E-Unit), independent sound control and independent speed control?. You don't! With LionChief you can! Look at it this way; if you currently only run 1 train on one track at one time, what does it matter that when you are running a LionChief loco that the track power to the mainline is at full voltage? It doesn't! All your other conventional locos are sitting on sidings with power off to the center rails! so having fixed voltage to run a LionChief loco is feasible, regardless of whether you run conventional or command!

 

9.) Keeping #8 in mind, think of this; no more block wiring! (Remember, we are talking about new users here, those who have NOTHING or very little to start with!) These sets are not being produced for the die-hard train operators, for you guys we have LEGACY and Conventional Classics!

RE: Cannot run these with conventional control! Rubish!!!!!!

Works fine!

See my earlier posts it works just fine on Convetional, I will have to get around to doing a video and posting it for you all.

 

Set the remote control to full speed and place next to your transformer put your engine on the track with the transformer off, turn up the transformer and make your Lionel Chief engine go as fast or slow as you want! Works the same as any other engine!

 

Want it to reverse sorry instead of hitting the reverse switch you have to turn the remote from forward to full reverse, same with bell/whistle other sounds.

 

And if you get a conventional set you only get a air whistle normally with the remote set you get 3 sounds!

 

So you want to run one remote and a conventional engine on the same loop of track; if 2 conventional engines you can only do this with a block system with remote you do not need blocks set remote to full it will likely out run your other engine and adjust your transformer throttle to the speed you want to run your conventional engine, grab the remote and adjust it so it does not crash into the convetional engine ! No problem !!!!   Adjust your transformer speed to control speeds of both engines together on the same track!!!

 

I would not want to see adding extra costs for the 1% of people that would have the need to not use the remote.

I would not want to see big $'s added for a TMCC chip this is a cheap starter set for a family it runs great works great and is cheaper then selling with a transformer!

PLEASE ASK LIONEL AT YORK ANYONE OR EVERYONE OR E-MAIL CALL OR WRITE LIONEL VERY VERY IMPORTANT RE THE REMOTE CONTROL SETS!

 

We had the remote control Thomas set running at a local show, with the kids running this and conventional trains. The darned Thomas Bell was driving us nuts! LIONEL PLEASE MAKE THE BELL BUTTON ON ALL SETS PUSH AND HOLD TO OPERATE!!!!!!!!!! PLEASE WE BEG YOU !!!!!!!!!!!!

It is loud and annoying the kids would put it on and leave it on, it was so loud one volunteer could not take it and left! Others put in ear plugs. The Thomas Bell was so loud you could hear it when you could not hear any other sounds from further away.

 

Also it would be nice if the remote responded a bit faster. When you change speeds directions it takes a couple of seconds for the train to respond to the remote.

If RC race cars and planes can respond instantly why not the Lionel Remote control trains!

I have mixed feelings about this system right now.

 

I like the lower prices on the sets!

 

I like the fact that the smoke units on Lionel sets will finally work properly with 18 volts. I can not count the number of complaints we get about the smoke units not working properly. Light and sounds should be much improved also.

 

I like the fact that kids love remotes and we need to get more kids into the hobby.

 

My biggest complaint is they already had TMCC and Electric RR so why not just include that?

 

Is this really that much cheaper?

 

IF the customer wants to buy TMCC or Legacy these sets will not be compatible.

 

I know you Lionel folks have been saying all along that it was too expensive to include TMCC in a starter set but you manage to put it into a $100 speeder.

 

We need a universal remote also to demonstrate these in a retail environment or we have to have a box of remotes.

 

Thanks for your post Mike. I agree with a lot of what you said.

 

Brian Sheffield '

Legacy Station

 

 

 

 

 

Speeder's don't have smoke or sound.  They also have little or no pulling power.  In short, they don't have to control much current or do much of anything other than turn their tiny motors.  That's the main reason they are so small and so cheap.  A starter set with no smoke, no sound, and no cars would't be much of a set!

That is all true but what is so different about LionChief and TMCC or Electric RR?

 

That is my question. TMCC has been around for a long time. Is is that much more expensive than LionChief?

I think Lionel may have tried something like LionChief back in 1996. I don't know all the history since I've been in/out with the hobby multiple times since then but I was looking through one of Lionel's many catalogs from 1996 and came across "Scout CAB Plus", Set#1464RS advertised to be "On the Lionel Horizon". It seems it was an 027 set with a scaled down TMCC control system, very similiar to TrainChief.

 

Does anyone know if Lionel actually released this set? I don't recall ever seeing a remote control that looked at all like the one pictured in the catalog. If they did and it didn't sell, that could portend the future of LionChief. If it never was released, that would also speak volumes. And just for the record, I'm not against the new system. My only issue was I felt that there should be a switch that could allow the engine to work under normal conventional control.

 

George Santayana: "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

The new system is using a direct signal from the hand held to the "vehicle".  The signals are tied together by their specific frequencies.  There is no need for addressing or decoding  commands.  No need for a more elaborate/complicated/expensive "base" or remote.

I do like the idea of giving them a remote with the set versus making them pay for a system later on to run the set.

 

That is a plus. No doubt. Kids should love that.

 

I just can't help but think they can make TMCC sets (without a remote) for later use when they do buy the system. Those sets should sell for a reasonable price.

 

They have given up on that concept entirely.

 

Keep these sets if they want to, but on the higher priced ones give them TMCC.

 

 

 

I can hear Mike bashing his head against his desk from here in Australia.

David,

   To add to what you said--

 

What I get out of this is that Lionel missed the boat (or train) by not first coming to this forum and asking for input and advice in developing a corporate marketing plan.

Then nothing would ever get made by Lionel...

 

Rusty

...... some of the people, some of the time.........

Much ado about nothing and contrary to ordinary. The reinvention of the wheel intended for an eight year old. Cuckoo For Coco Puffs..and as Cronkite said, Thats the way it is.  A debate over Slinkys is overdue. Reminds me of our pols in making mountains out of molehills. My mailbox overfloweth, thou protest too much. I can't figure out how to use this deluge of information. It could be there's no practical use for post editorial input to Mike as a design by committee once a decision was made by others rather than him.  

I have no problem with innovation and trying new things. We will all be very proud of Lionel if this is a big hit and they sell a million of them.

 

I just really like TMCC and Legacy equipped starter sets. It is an easy sale.

 

Those Lionmaster sets with the SD80's were expensive but worth every penny. I guess they did not make much money on them because you don't see them any more.

 

I can see it now "THE STARTER SET REMOTE GARAGE" to hold all your remotes just like the "LIONEL LEGACY MODULE GARAGE" !!!

 

 

 

 

I am interested about this for the following reason.  I have DCS and will soon have Legacy to replace my TMCC installed on my layout.  For the Christmas layout I would like a simple remote system.  Last year I used a DCS commander and this year I plan to add Lion Chief. 

 

My only concern is the sound system.  Will the sounds be Railsounds quality or will it be the same as last years Thomas set?

 

Thanks,

-Ryan

That set and the remote were never produced.  I'm not sure that says anything specific except that Lionel internally decided it was not worth pursuing after they considered it further at that time.

 

Need to remember that while there were pre-orders back then, there was much less product offered as a whole.  I don't think we were anywhere near as far into "wish book" territory then as we are now.  Until probably 1999 or 2000 (when Lionel and MTH were each doing 3 pretty big catalogs a year), you can probably count pretty easily the relatively few items that did not get produced.

 

-Dave

Ryan-IMO and many others Railsounds is the best. Alot of it depends on which version and what type of speakers that Lionel is using but you will be happy with Railsounds.