Can't get past my own hang-ups, Please advise

  No matter how big you make it you will always have a wide friend that will stand in that spot and you can't get around him.

My layout is built against the walls of enclosed side porch.  The middle of the layout,  or aisle if you will, is 22 inches wide. 

Try creating a 3D visualization in SCARM or one of the other softwares.  You might also have to create a 3D "person" or at least an extruded ellipse to get a sense of whether the aisles are wide enough.  My train room is 11.5 x 18 so there won't be many 3' aisles, I assure you ;-)

Two sides of my 10'-by-5' layout are only 13 inches from the walls. This provides access to work on the back of the layout and clean the track. I can fit into that space but 24 inches would make it much easier and would be enough for me. The layout is on wheels (casters), so it could be moved further away from the walls, but I prefer to retain more space at the front of the layout. And, I don't move the layout, even though it is on wheels.

MELGAR

This was an decision issue with my latest layout. I did not want to make the same mistake I made last time when I had my layout up against two walls along with crowded narrow aisles to access the other two sides, I overbuilt for the size of my room. My new build has easy access all around with 3-4 feet aisles -- that some would say could have been used to enlarge the run space. 

BroBroyals:  I am a big proponent of "people space" in a layout design.  But you can go smaller than 3' - 2' would be the minimum I would suggest for maintenance, but that would be tight for operating and casual moving around to see the layout.   Tight but doable.   And if you have at least one larger space OR a front side open from which to run trains, then I don't see a problem, in theory.   I would be interested in seeing your layout plan and track plan, and would offer an opinion.   

Often access hatches or pop-ups are quite small, some just 2' square - so that gives you an idea that a small space can work, even if it is not ideal.

The other side of thinking about people space is "reach":   Can you reach everywhere in about 30"?   I stretch that rule-of-thumb and say that you need to be able to reach all turnouts in about 30", or 36" at the max limit (which means you are leaning over the layout and may interfere with structures and scenery).

So I suggest that you look again at your plans with the 2' wide aisle minimum and for access areas, and 30" of reach to turnouts (and preferably all track within 36" of reach).  Sometimes we have to accept trade-offs.   But also keep in mind that difficult access will deter one from working on the layout, and if there are problems difficult to fix, could turn you away from the enjoyment of running trains.

I have previously worked on layouts where there is a "pinch-point" of 18" or 20", that you have to squeeze through.   Even that tight squeeze-through can be made to work.

-Ken

The way I see it - is that you can have an around the room table of 30"-36" wide and a 5'-6' center space or you could have a 5'-6' W x 21'-22' L floating table with 3' all around

I am assuming that the 11' x 27' is the room area

You  would still have the big friend blocking passage issue 

I have a 12' x 16' that I'm presently building. I'm try to think how to develop access points as I have carpet as a ground coverage. I know I need to cut  access places. I did make it 4' off the ground to give me areas I can get to easier. I'm just starting so I'm trying to think do I make the access areas first or do I lay track and then make the openings.

If you can find an old Kalmbach book Scenery for Model Railroads by Bill McClannahan, he describes a solution where you build lift-out sections at strategic places on the layout. Whenever a problem arises, you would crawl underneath the layout and then push up the lift-out section and set it aside while you address the problem, whatever it is. After you're finished, lower yourself down through the opening and put the lift-out section back.

I'm a visual hands on type of person. Probably comes from building with Erector sets, Lego, Tinkertoys, and Lincoln Logs as a kid. So as such, I tried planning in software how I wanted my layout, but then just bought the track and switches and at least put it on the table (not attached, just connected enough to run a train) and then played with that for about a week. After that, you will get a feel for if the plan works or not. Then cut your access holes. Now yes, I used Fastrack  and that's easier during this layout phase as you can just plug it together and run. Custom flex track, custom curves, Gargraves or other track, it's harder to just lay it out without partially attaching it to the base. Again, I found this method let me see things that might work in software, but in real life simply did not work. Saves you on some of the rework later IMO.  Again, having had the same question myself, I actually put the track down, ran some trains for a few days to see how I liked it, and then figured out if the layout plan even worked before cutting holes.

Moonman posted:

The way I see it - is that you can have an around the room table of 30"-36" wide and a 5'-6' center space or you could have a 5'-6' W x 21'-22' L floating table with 3' all around

I am assuming that the 11' x 27' is the room area

You  would still have the big friend blocking passage issue 

Yes, this is the question that needs answered.

Aisle width depends on how many operators and visitors are expected to occupy the space.  If you plan to operate the layout solo and have an occasional visitor or two, then 24" aisles will work well (unless your own physique requires them to be wider).  It is possible but a little tight for two people to pass in a 24" aisle.  They can pass easily in a 30" aisle.

Another thing to keep in mind is that an aisle doesn't need to be the same width over it's entire length.  Most of the aisle can be 24" if you allow for a couple of 30" to 36" passing areas.

If you plan to have several operators or visitors frequently, then aisles should be as wide as practically possible.

Increase the dosage of your meds.      (Relax everyone, I take meds for OCD otherwise I wouldn't joke about it).   Seriously though, except for the few in the hobby that have a huge space for a layout everyone needs to compromise in this hobby.   Bob's advice is excellent.   Besides, all that really matters is can YOU fit in the aisles.  If yes, go for it.   I can pretty much guarantee that once you start building your layout your OCD will cause you to focus on the layout itself - not the spacing in the aisles. 

What helped me on my old layout was this - I used tape to mark out the layout dimensions on the floor and left it there for a week or so before I started to build.  This got me used to what the layout would "feel like" and along with mental exercises helped me get past the things that were holding me back (like will I have space to walk around the layout and be able to reach everything).  

In the end it comes down to what you prefer - the layout as is with less space OR a different design which leaves more space to walk around.  Only you can make that decision.  Both WILL look great and be perfectly fine regardless of what your internal mind is telling you.  

My old layout was in a crappy basement, was L-shaped, and only 5.5x15x9.  Not one person who ever came over to see it had a bad word to say nor did anyone not enjoy the time spent there hanging out with fellow hobbyists.  I'm confident your experience will be the same. 

-Greg

I can understand the concern, but it is very easy to get caught up in the what ifs, if you listen to everyone with the 'you can't do this, you have to do that', you likely won't end up building a layout, to be honest. For example, there are some who tell you that "you absolutely have to have a reversing loop, otherwise you will not like running trains on the layout in one direction". While that is a valid piece of advice, that some people get bored if you can't reverse the route, there are plenty of nice layouts that don't have a reversing loop.  Others make the very valid point that duckunders can be literally a pain in the back and caboose, and it is best to try and avoid them...and as others have pointed out, the reach element is important, too, that if you have a table more than 30" or so wide, it is hard to reach (so a table 6 ft wide with access on both sides would be fine, a 6' width table up against the wall, not so much).  

In the end, it is about tradeoffs, and like duck-unders and reverse loops and the like, it is all about what you want out of the layout. If you decide to build an around the room kind of layout, if you have 2 foot access aisles on either side,you could have pretty wide tables, bigger than 30", because you could access them from the sides and the inside aisle which would allow getting to it from whichever was closer.  If you plan on having  a lot of people there with something like an operating session, than wider aisles might be better, you don't have to use even spaces, so maybe 28" or 30" would work, for example. 

As far as when we get older, my thought is design for what you have today, enjoy that. Obviously, if you know that you have something where you might be needing a wheelchair or be using a cane in the visible future, then it would be wise to design around that, but otherwise I would recommend designing a layout you can enjoy now (obviously, if you have friends or family members who have special access requirements, that is a different story), what you like, then worry about accommodating aging when the time comes, since you don't know when that will happen. 

Bob, I can appreciate your concern about the narrow room.  Mine is only a foot wider, but I need to allow access to an end wall full of windows and have to keep access to 4 doors in the room.  Please see my topic to see the room configuration and how we addressed the issues.  Forum members weally stepped up to the plate for me!!    Start looking on page 14 at my post on 5/14/18.  Before that we were planning for a smaller room.    

If my room only had one door, I believe I would have gone with Carl's proposal above and make a lift out or lift up bridge for access.  Please tell us a little more about your room and some of your desires.  I may have preferred a twice around the room which would have worked in Carl's proposal, but went with two turnback loops to make things work.

Ask yourself this.

Are you building it for yourself or your friends ?

Do you think you will have lots of visitors?

If yourself, are you a large person ?

If for your friends are they large?

Are you fit and healthy ? (no back problems)

I operate my layout every Friday with two other mates one is large, one is skinny I am in between I cater for the three of us, I don't have the time right this minute but I will post photos tomorrow of how I get around these problems it might help you or might not. Today is operating day I might snap some photos of the men at work to give you an idea of what I am talking about.

Regards Roo.

I have 14 inches to the wall, and about 5 more on the upper table.  Not been a problem.  Reality is that you will not have nearly the visitors that you think.  One access or viewing area will be plenty.  Build it for yourself.

Do not worry what other think, it is your layout for YOUR enjoyment. 

Roo posted:

Ask yourself this.

Are you building it for yourself or your friends ?

Do you think you will have lots of visitors?

If yourself, are you a large person ?

If for your friends are they large?

Are you fit and healthy ? (no back problems)

I operate my layout every Friday with two other mates one is large, one is skinny I am in between I cater for the three of us, I don't have the time right this minute but I will post photos tomorrow of how I get around these problems it might help you or might not. Today is operating day I might snap some photos of the men at work to give you an idea of what I am talking about.

Regards Roo.

All great suggestions Neville. Quick observations from just the past few years:

Was at a fantastic 3Rail layout located in the second floor addition which could become 2 bedrooms when the house was sold. There was a 2' wide aisle about 30' long aisle along the back wall. You dare not go down it because if anyone followed you in EVERYONE would have to back out for someone to leave. Even in this fairly large area some folks with claustrophobia bailed after about 10' in the aisle with the feeling they would be trapped. 

Went on many layout tours the past few years, many of the layouts had fixed or movable bridges (not lift out or swing up) that were so low you had to crawl in on your hands and knees. Some guests left after a few minutes of viewing with the comment "You have got to be kidding me!" Talking with the regulars they said many quit visiting because they couldn't see the layout anyway.

A few had aisles so narrow a 5'-5" 100 pound girl couldn't fit down them just to get more tracks in. When big people attempted to go down them they broke scenery off the layout. 

Then there were those built right up to the windows because "We never open them." That of course was until one leaked or broke and required lots of layout damage for access. 

As many here have mentioned it is your layout and should be built so that you enjoy it, all while remembering if guests don't feel comfortable visiting they won't come, inaccessible tunnels are a no go, and if any maintenance is a headache your enjoyment will quickly drop. And trains running so you view inside corners seem to always look better than outside corners.

Bob, you look like a young guy from your picture.

BIGKID said it best.."...then worry about accommodating aging when the time comes".

You'll get 3-5 years out of the layout then want to 'tinker'. Just look at all the posts on here along the lines of 'out with the old in with the new'. All of our railroads are reimagined after some run time and so are the spaces we contain them in. Those experiences obviously shape and impact what we do next - it's tough to truly see how the 'experience' will unfold completely on a monitor or graph paper. The best laid plans of mice and men...

Over time you will start to visualize 'options' that you'd never even considered in September of 2019. Start making a list of things you'd like to fix from week #1 then rebuild it when you feel it. Chances are even that will not be the last time you do it! Good luck.

I picked up John Coy's book on how to be your own custom designer titled "Model Railroad Custom Designer."  His position was "...always calculate and plan for people space."  Not only for visitors viewing the layout, but for operating it and maintaining it.  If you want visitors to enjoy it and multiple operators running it, 36" is the minimum.  He showed some innovative ways to do that with small layouts.  He also discussed other minimum widths based on use of the area.

Well, 36" really impacted my design at the time, which had the capability for multiple operators.  I decided to start over and see if I could design a layout maintaining a minimum 36" aisle width in all areas.  Basically I could not if I wanted most of the operating features I wanted.   Needed something narrower.

I had a couple of built but not installed train tables that I moved around to see what would be comfortable for me, a 70 year old 6'1" 180lb guy.  These tables are 48" high and I found 24" worked well for just me without knocking down items on the tables that were close to the edge.  My wife and I could pass each other with 24", but she is only 5'7'' and 120Lbs so that is probably not a good test.

Anyway, 24" became my minimum with the goal of 36" where possible.  That still didn't work and I have two short choke points that are approximately 20" wide where the return loop tables come close to the opposite table.  That works for me but not sure about some of my friends.  If I stay with that width these areas will have minimal landscaping.  

I also have a 3' long 16" access aisle to some switches that, again, works for me.  Will see how all this works.

I have 18" along one side of my layout and it hasn't been an issue so far.

Had the same problem. Built an around the walls shelf layout. If you'll enjoy seeing the trains run, you'll like it. I have plenty of scenery and a couple of industries. Love it. It's simple. No Y, no reverse loops. Turn locos by hand.

Good Luck,

Ron H

I just wanted to thank @CAPPilot for mentioning @John C. 's book.  I bought the book from @MrMuffin'sTrains and received it today.  What a great resource, with a fresh perspective on layout design!  Thank you all!

Roo posted:

Ask yourself this.

Are you building it for yourself or your friends ?

Do you think you will have lots of visitors?

If yourself, are you a large person ?

If for your friends are they large?

Are you fit and healthy ? (no back problems)

I operate my layout every Friday with two other mates one is large, one is skinny I am in between I cater for the three of us, I don't have the time right this minute but I will post photos tomorrow of how I get around these problems it might help you or might not. Today is operating day I might snap some photos of the men at work to give you an idea of what I am talking about.

Regards Roo.

Sorry about the delay got called up for baby sitting duties and other family matters. The track plan shown has changed slightly but the baseboards and aisle have not. We run every week (Fridays) when I'm home it's not a million dollar layout but lots of fun everything is plastic and lots of scratch building. Visitors are welcome, it's not a show layout, it's a switching layout built for operation, because that's what we like. The room was originally set up for our four children as a games room when they stopped using it I moved in many years ago. I built the house on a cheap war service (Vietnam War) block of land 45 years ago with a war service loan I don't have a lot of money I'm just an average bloke like most of us.

1st photo: Bruce and Big John height is 48 inches aisle width is 40 inches length of room 30 feet width 30 feet approx, baseboard on right where Bruce is 32 inches wide other side 27. They are sorting the operation plan for the days activities in case your wondering! Snapped last Friday.

2nd photo: Big John, aisle width at the corner diagonal 48 inches.

3rd photo: Me sitting down aisle 25 inches wide.

4th photo:  Bruce again, in the background is the entry into the room no duck unders, the digital clock is a fast clock for the operation plan .

Regards Roo.

Roo, That gives a great idea of how people fit in varying aisle widths, standing and sitting!  Looks like a lot of different switching moves for sure!  

Thank you for your service to our great countries!!

Thank you for your service to our great countries!!

Mark, thank you for saying that. I like to think I am a tough old guy but that brought tears to my eyes not often I hear comments like that, your a good bloke but I knew that before the message. Roo.

Thank you, Roo!  Well I've told others; I was in high school when you fellows were there.  I prayed every night for all of you!  I was afraid of having to go myself, but I was young enough to not have to.  And that brings tears to my eyes.

A person needs an area about 2 feet square to turnaround and not sweep the little people off the layout.  So an operator can move, turn around, and operate a train in a 2 foot wide aisle.  Passing another operator may be problematical.

A 3 foot wide aisle will allow people to pass and move about randomly without causing much interference.  They may brush the edges of the layout.  This is a case where the wider is better.

One to 1 1/2 foot is wide enough for 1 person to move laterally to service a wreck, etc.  It is not meant for visitors.

I have an around-the room layout with a center peninsula.  My viewing/visitor area is 24 ft by 3 feet and is reached through a lift-up bridge..  My access/operating area is 24 ft by 2 ft.

Jan