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25 replies

Cross brand compatibility?

G GDCOGR Forum Member
I searched and couldn't find an answer. Newbie question here.

Are engines generally compatible with other makers' transformers, etc.? Specificaly: I have a pair of Lionel CW-80 transformers and use Lionel Fastrack. I will ultimately (probably) upgrade to Legacy control. MTH makes some good looking engines that I like a lot. Will MTH run on Lionel stuff?

Thanks

Gary
Original Post

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T TrainPopOGR Forum Member MEMORIALIZED MEMBER
Gary;
If your train budget will allow it, consider either a newer version Lionel ZW or the MTH Z4000. Both are excellent and will allow for expansion of your empire.
My personal preference is the MTH Z4000 and if you ask for opinions on the forum, you will probably get just as many folks opting for either transformer.
AGHRMattAGHRMattOGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBERMEMORIAL SUPPORTER
I don't have a layout yet as the dynamics of space keep changing, but the very first thing I bought was a Z4000 transformer. I was lucky enough to pick one up from an estate collection the local (to the club, anyway) hobby store had picked up. The new Lionel ZW is also a good choice. The transformer is one of two areas where you can't cut corners. The other is the structural materials for your layout -- use the good stuff.

With rolling stock, what I've found is that operationally, the bulk of 3-rail rolling stock from the major manufacturers works well together. Some precautions need to be taken -- heavier, short rolling stock near the locomotive(s) and longer, lighter rolling stock toward the rear.

As for locomotives, MTH Proto-2/Proto-3 engines can't be MU'd with Lionel TMCC/Legacy engines, but both types of engines can be operated separately at the same time on the same layout if you have both command systems installed. We do it all the time at the club.

Hope this helps.
Allan MillerAllan MillerOGR Editor-in-Chief SUPPORTING MEMBERDIGITAL SUBSCRIBER
quote:
If you want to run some MTH then the Z1000 would be a good choice. The CW-80 is not garbage, lot's of people use them, they just are not compatible with an MTH engine.

That's how I would put it, as well. The CW80 is probably fine if you're going to operate Lionel trains, but I do not recommend it for MTH locomotives. MTH doesn't recommend it either (they list about 25 compatible transformers in their owners manuals). The Z1000 is an excellent small transformer. I used one for my tinplate layout (until I switched to the DCS Remote Commander last week) and used a couple of them on my regular layout until recently when I bought a Z4000. The Z1000s will now be used to power accessories.
winrose46winrose46OGR Forum Member
You can run material from all the vendors. I do agree with the opinion regarding the Lionel CW-80; however, Lionel has made "fixes" to the CW-80 and I do not have any experiences with that device. You will get many opinions - filter out the miss-information which may be difficult. A vendor in the Brown Hall at this past York (running a vision hudson) kept making the statement that Legacy and DCS were not compatible and that a CAB2 could be burned up as a result. I even have an email from a Lionel tech at stated
quote:
Conventional Accessories should run fine on the 50 Hz. Anything that is TMCC or Legacy operated will need to be on the 60 Hz or it will not work.
Take any information with a grain of salt and evaluate. I have photos on my web site of a layout in germany Albrecht's layout where you can see Legacy, TMCC and Proto 2 engines running simultaneously in a 50 cycle environment. On my own 14 loops, I run proto2, Legacy, and TMCC simultaneously without any issues (multiple Proto2 consists followed by a Legacy or TMCC consist). Regarding your original question of transformers I am currently using 5 Lionel 180 bricks, 3 MTH Z4000's, one MRC Pure Power Dual and two PW Lionel ZWs. As you can see from my layout I mix and run command controlled trains from all the vendors. Atlas is the only one I do not have with MTH Proto2 engines, Lionel Legacy engines, Kline TMCC (two also converted to Proto2), SMR (ERR and Proto2 conversionS) with a 3rd Rail ERR expected before Christmas. It is very nice time to be in the hobby where you can purchase a product from alomost any vendor and not having to be concerned about whether it runs well with the other products you have purchased.
cbojanowercbojanowerOGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBERDIGITAL SUBSCRIBERMEMORIAL SUPPORTER
I never had a CW-80 until this Christmas when it came with a Harry Potter set. I was a bit worried about it until I used it, its actually a nice little transformer. It ran the Hogwarts just fine with 3 lighted cars., The handles had a nice feel to them and it ran my postwar engines nicely

Granted there are some lemons out there, but when it works it works nicely
R RailRideOGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBER
Here is the reason for the incompatibility between MTH and the CW-80:


Notice how the smooth sine wave we associate with AC power is chopped up into a series of shark-fin shaped waves? When most MTH electronics see that kind of power, they go "this doesn't look kosher" and refuse to leave their startup mode. Some people have gotten around this by holding down the direction button while raising the voltage to the point that the "shark fins" are mostly smoothed out, then releasing power to the engine to get it out of start-up mode. This may become tedious, though.

The easier solution is to use a Z-1000, which runs everything (and gives you an extra 20 watts of capacity), and dedicate the CW-80 to accessories or other functions that aren't bothered by oddball manipulations of AC power.

---PCJ
G GinsawOGR Forum Member
Gary, are you interested in knowing just about the engines and transformers, or other things too?

For the transformers, generally speaking and with a very few exceptions like what's noted above, most transformers both old and new of whatever brand will run anything. I say that having tried a lot of them (not including the CW-80). I've tried Lionel 1930s Pre-War, several Post War, the modern New ZW, the Z-4000 and many in between and they all seem to get the trains run OK as far as that's concerned. What you run into though is aside from the trains, some transformers have "issues" peculiar unto themselves and some are more desirable than others. There's also obviously the question how much power you require. And you may have an issue of electronic parts availability with some modern transformers or controllers.

As for non engine concerns, you also have some compatibility issues regarding different brands of O Gauge couplers. Generally, they can be made to couple to each other and keep trains together regardless of brands, but they're not all equal in how well they do it or how well they mate to each other. On a whole different level you also can have issues with car weight problems, or the lack thereof.
Terrence LTerrence LOGR Forum Member
Originally Posted by RailRide:
 
    The easier solution is to use a Z-1000, which runs everything (and gives you an extra 20 watts of capacity), and dedicate the CW-80 to accessories or other functions that aren't bothered by oddball manipulations of AC power.
 
--------------
 
Today I tested a Z-1000 on an MTH Imperial K4 (PS2) hauling the Lionel South Wind passenger car set (15340) along with the matching South Wind add-on station sounds diner car (15385)
 
The MTH K4 operated fine (in conventional mode using the Z-1000 and its controller). The Lionel station sounds car experienced bizarre glitches such as blinking interior cabin lights (it flickered on and off like on the Harry Potter Dementors passenger car). But after a couple of presses of the Direction Button, the flickering turned off.  The Z-1000 triggered the station sounds just fine (well, to a degree). But the flickering lights in the Lionel diner car would frequently return during directional changes or when the MTH engine stopped then resumed forward (or backward) motion. The flickering did not occur in any of the other South Wind passenger cars -- it only occurred in the station sounds car.
 
There must be some interference or incompatibilities between the MTH Z-1000 and the Lionel South Wind station sounds diner car (released in 2003).
 
The MTH TIU and handheld remote (at constant 18v track voltage) is unable to activate the Lionel station sounds in the diner car. Either my Lionel station sounds diner car is possessed or there are clearly some incompatibilities.
 
When I finally receive my pre-ordered Lionel Legacy 990 and hook it up to the track and TIU I will test the Lionel station sounds diner operations again to discover if the MTH and Lionel systems co-habiting the track will play nice together. According to everything that I have heard and read, they should simultaneously function independently just fine. 
Last edited by Terrence L
LW Lee WillisOGR Forum Member
Originally Posted by SJC:
It really depends. MTH PS2 engines will NOT run on Lionel CW80 transformers. Those transformers are truly garbage. MTH makes a VERY nice replacement in its Z-1000 transformer and it can run just about every make and model.

I have a bunch of CW-80s I accumulated over the years and while I would not buy a new one if I needed a power supply, they aren't that bad in my view.  I have several PS2 locos - okay, about a dozen -  and all run well enough on the CW-80s.  I run only conventionally land in my experience nothing runs locos - Lionel, MTH, or Bachman - better in conventional than the Lionel ZW-L, but that is a lot of coin for a power supply (it's a lot of power supply, too, but you got need that much to make it worth you money).  

 

If you have a bunch of MTH PS-whatevers and need a power supply, why not get a MTH 1000? Its a good unit, you won't have worries about cross brand stuff and it will run Lionel and Bachman okay,  and you know you won't have any problems with your MTH.   

Bob SeverinBob SeverinOGR Forum Member

I think that most of us don't look at the original post date, but respond to the latest posting.  Old threads continually pop back up, they bring back memories if you read or participated in them before, but, again, it's easy to forget how old they really are when you are responding to the most recent posting. 

 

The original poster probably has probably gone on to solving his or her problem, and has completely forgotten about it.  Just an observation.

Last edited by Bob Severin
falconservicefalconserviceOGR Forum Member

The MTH ProtoSounds locomotives can be operated using a Lionel PowerHouse Transformer and one of the Track Power Controllers TPC or the new Legacy PowerMasters with the blue housing. With the new CAB-1L you can control the MTH ProtoSounds Locomotive in conventional mode.

 

Do not bother with using the old 1990's era PowerMaster with the dark gray housing. They are not predictable.

 

 

Andrew

C CSURamOGR Forum Member

I am in the same boat.  I have several conventional Lionel trains (two Railsounds) and the CW-80.  Now that my son goes to college,

pulling stuff out of boxes and thought I might venture into TMCC so bought a Lionel PH-1 (135W) and the related controller (thinking I could use this for both conventional and TMCC).  Well, now before buying a TMCC train I picked up an MTH PS1 loco passenger set and read the CW-80 is not compatible (chopped sine wave as discussed here).  Would the PH-1 power supply be compatible with the MTH and if not I hear there is an MTH compatible transformer list...can someone lead me to that.   I know I could just buy the Z1000 for everything but would like to not add more "stuff" if I can use what I have.

 

Thanks

L LandsteinerOGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBER

"Would the PH-1 power supply be compatible with the MTH ""

The PH-1 is merely a fixed power/voltage source and is compatible with everything.  There are several devices that have been

made over the years to vary the voltage from the PH-1 in conventional mode.  Powermaster-1, TPCs and more recently the Legacy Powermaster.

Devices such as the TPCs work with PS1, the Powermaster-1 likely will not.  Other solid state 1990s throttles such as the Lionel MW, the MRC powerpacks also can be problematic with PS1.

Last edited by Landsteiner
P phillyreadingOGR Forum Member
CSURam posted:

I am in the same boat.  I have several conventional Lionel trains (two Railsounds) and the CW-80.  Now that my son goes to college,

pulling stuff out of boxes and thought I might venture into TMCC so bought a Lionel PH-1 (135W) and the related controller (thinking I could use this for both conventional and TMCC).  Well, now before buying a TMCC train I picked up an MTH PS1 loco passenger set and read the CW-80 is not compatible (chopped sine wave as discussed here).  Would the PH-1 power supply be compatible with the MTH and if not I hear there is an MTH compatible transformer list...can someone lead me to that.   I know I could just buy the Z1000 for everything but would like to not add more "stuff" if I can use what I have.

 

Thanks

I know that the MTH PS-2 system is not compatible with the Lionel CW-80 transformer, not 100% sure about the PS-1 engines as they were mainly a sound system by MTH.

I have an MTH T-1 steam engine that would not move when used with the CW-80, it acted crazy; was trying to find what direction to go. A couple minutes later put it on an older Lionel transformer and it did fine. So I would say that MTH PS-2 engines don't work with the Lionel CW-80 transformer.

Don't know how the PS-3 engines do with the CW-80 transformer as I was at somebody else's house when I used the CW-80 with my PS-2 engine. I don't have a Lionel CW-80 transformer, but have a few post war Lionel transformers and they have been to the shop for an update or repair.

Currently I have 3 MTH Z-1000 transformers. I was thinking about getting an MTH Z-4000 but when I can buy the Z-1000(looks like brand new) for under $40.00 at a train show why spend the extra money on the Z-4000?

Lee Fritz

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