Daylights: To White Wall or not White Wall

Mikado 4501 posted:

Since Lionel recently announced the return of the scale GS-4 Daylight after an 8 year absence, I noticed a lot of buzz about how some guys hated the white walls on the previous run as well as the GS-2's from 2012.

Personally, as much as I love that Lionel brought back the GS-4's (especially 4449, since we all know everyone wants the best of that engine around) with IR sensors, whistle steam, and sequence control, the black walls in the catalog just didn't make me smile like the white walled previous runs did. I don't know, that's just me. I guess I like my steam trains the way I like my cars.

This is just a small topic, but, white walls thumbs up? Or thumbs down?

It all comes down to what YOU desire to model:

1) The SP did not use & maintain white tires in service.

2) The Lima builder photos show white tires for effect.

3) During the entire American Freedom Train tour, 4449 carried white tires.

4) When 4449 was restored back to SP red & orange Daylight colors for the grand opening of the California State Railroad Museum, during May 1981, she had white tires.

Ah yes those wide whites ... 

Brings me back to the 50's - LOVE IT!

Gotta say, thumbs up on the whites!

I like white walls on any steam engine.

Let's put it this way... when Lionel catalog'd 3 or 4 FEF's last year, the one that stood out the most for me was the one with whitewalls.  Just looked more finished to me.  And I don't care whether it was prototypical or not. 

I vote whitewalls. 

Thumbs up

Having had American Flyer as a boy, I'm somewhat pre-disposed to the whitewalls but actually prefer the thin stainless rims on many of our models starting with the early PW 726 Berkshires

I'm in the minority here but I prefer no white walls...it just seems to make it look too finished to my eyes, but as HW stated you model what you like.  

I had the same question on the white walls so I pulled out "Robert Church - Southern Pacific Daylight Locomotives" and looked it up. 4430-4449 arrived May 1941. I like the white wall look but I would agree with Hot Water on this topic. The pictures in the book shows 4436 builder photo w/ white walls, 4434 June 1941 w/ white walls, 4433 (7 Days old) w/ white walls. Picture of 4449 dated 1941 without white walls and in the picture it states; note the aluminum on the tires is nearly obliterated by road grime and grease, the very reason the practice was not continued by the SP. So I can live without the white walls. The bigger question is will Lionel move the display indicators to the middle of the boiler like they did on the GS6 for the units labeled Southern Pacific on the tender. The indicators were moved mid WWII to the middle from the front. There are some pictures of GS4's with Southern Pacific Lines on  the tender and the Indicators already moved. All of the pictures with Southern Pacific on the tender have the Indicators moved back as it is today on the 4449. So as Lionel has shown in the catalog, the only correct engines ( I am sure they are not perfect) are the 4443 & 4449 with Southern Pacific Lines on the tender. I am sure I will buy a new GS4 and I wanted a 4449 as it is today, but may have to settle for the as built WWII look. Even the GS6 below had white walls when delivered, but a photo of 4460 right after delivery in 1943 shows the white walls almost gone.

I Can't stand whitewalls on  steam engines .. I had the paint and paint brush in my hands several times about to paint them on my gs2. I didn't want to hurt the value of the engine cause deep down inside I new I would sell it someday.. I can't stand them on the last nickel plate berk they made to..  It looks like there gonna be on the new Allegheny witch makes me sad but I will learn to live with it. 

From a guy who has painted white walls - it is orders of magnitude easier to make whitewalls black than to go from black to really good white (or silver) walls.  Just turn the locomotive on, then touch the rims with a Testor's flat black pen as they rotate.  Trivial.

Hot and I have only access to photos.  The photos I have show even freight locomotives occasionally with white walls.  It was sort of up to the shop foreman. 

The SP even had switchers with white walls, and early on had green or grey boilers with red cab roofs.  Like 2472, the occasional locomotive had plated numbers and letters attached to cab and tender.

I am old enough to have seen a 4-10-2 with grey boiler, and to have seen double-shotted Gs-class locomotives in full red and orange dress, pulling heavyweights.  I rode behind 4-8-2s and AC- class locomotives.

No, not on my Daylight GS4s..........

This image of the heavy Mikado sums up what I like on my steamers(Hence why I bought this one.):

White on the tires and running boards, silver on the smoke box and fire pan, and green in the cab.  I'm still debating on painting the tires on my VL BB, but fear of not getting a clean line is holding me at bay.

I was excited to see the new GS-4 in the catalog - wasn't expecting that. I thought with the GS-2s offered fairly recently, another GS-4 would be further off into the future. I have a set of the Lionel 18" streamlined aluminum Daylight passenger cars I've been waiting to put behind an engine, but wanted a GS-4 rather than the GS-2. (Small things, but I like the enclosed cab and MARS light, and the rear top curvature of the GS-4 tender matches the streamlined cars better.)

Initially, I hadn't noticed that this new one has blackwalls. The previous GS-4 had whitewalls. So it's the new blackwall version with improved electronics and whistle steam vs. the older whitewall one. The whitewall version looks nice, too, but with the improvements I think the blackwall version will get the nod.

Some very nice photos of SP 4449, above. It should be pointed out that SP 4449 is currently carrying her "as delivered" SOUTHERN PACIFIC LINES livery with the train number indicator boards in their original forward position. When SP 4449 was lettered in the large "bill board" SOUTHERN PACIFIC lettering, the train number indicator boards where re-angled, and relocated rearward on the skyline casing.

Another forgotten point about the previously issued Lionel Legacy GS-4 model was, the main rod on the running gear was NOT the larger/correct size, but was apparently from the previous GS-2 models. It will be interesting to see if Lionel corrects that on this "high end" Vision Line model.

Incidentally, I just finished watching the 1/11/16 episode I'd recorded of "Trains and Locomotives" on the RFD television channel, which was "4449: Return to Freedom." It has some very nice commentary given at various times by Hot Water! I believe he was serving as fireman in the cab on the trip. There's some absolutely gorgeous scenery shown while steaming east up the north shore of the Columbia River. Great video. I wasn't aware there were so many tunnels along that route, but a good deal of it is carved out of the rock!

"It will be interesting to see if Lionel corrects that on this "high end" Vision Line model."

It is not a VL model. It is a Legacy Steamer.

Anyhow, I prefer mine without white walls. I like the in-service look. Sure you can put white walls on an engine, then 2 hours later they'd be black again from road grime.

But I can definitely see how people like the white walls. So to me, Lionel is making the right choice in omitting the white walls. That way, those of you who like the white walls can paint them on. We are, after-all, model railroaders. 

I have a Northern with whitewalls per prototype (Baldwin CNW H1) but have actually considered removing the whitewalls (and the stripes fro the catwalks) as it looks more like a static display locomotive than one that works every day. Ironically, rivet-counting (yes that sound strange coming from one who runs on 3 rails) is moving me against removing whitewalls when usually the reverse would be the case.

If you are going to go with the "Gangster" whitewalls you might as well add some curb feelers and fuzzy dice on the mirror.  

Then you might want consider replacing the whistle with an Ooogha horn to help you pick up chicks. 

I hope that Lionel gets the main driver rod right at that price point without the white walls,the MTH GS-4 has the correct main driver rods.

Mikey

This is a very interesting discussion.  The only thing I can add is that Southern Pacific always kept its passenger steam and diesel locomotives very clean.

Thumbs down on any steamer, especially the 4449! 

ES44AC posted:

Thumbs down on any steamer, especially the 4449! 

So,,,,,just why did you even bother to respond?

Hot Water posted:

Mikado 4501 posted:

...

This is just a small topic, but, white walls thumbs up? Or thumbs down?

...

2) The Lima builder photos show white tires for effect.

...

the practice of painting tire rims white is often mistaken for a decorative effect.  the white finish was applied to bring attention to stress cracks in the tire metal far sooner than a non-painted tire would tend to show.  shop foreman would rarely do anything merely for cosmetic appearance.

cheers...gary

overlandflyer posted:

Hot Water posted:

Mikado 4501 posted:

...

This is just a small topic, but, white walls thumbs up? Or thumbs down?

...

2) The Lima builder photos show white tires for effect.

...

the practice of painting tire rims white is often mistaken for a decorative effect.  the white finish was applied to bring attention to stress cracks in the tire metal far sooner than a non-painted tire would tend to show.  shop foreman would rarely do anything merely for cosmetic appearance.

cheers...gary

You assume way too much. Yes, some railroads "painted" the driver tires and wheel rims white, such as C&O for example. That was NOT to look for cracks, but purely cosmetic. Many/most roads simply pained the entire running gear black, except for the rods, including tires & wheel rims. THAT procedure was strictly for ease of maintenance. Besides, a "crack" in a tire would have resulted in a broken tire VERY quickly, since tires are heat shrunk onto the wheel, and are thus under expansive stress.

Hot Water posted:

ES44AC posted:

Thumbs down on any steamer, especially the 4449! 

So,,,,,just why did you even bother to respond?

Uh, take a look at the first post, it says, "white walls thumbs up, or white walls thumbs down?" I personally don't care for white walls, so I gave it a thumbs down. I was simply giving my two cents.