Exploding Williams !

Are these pre Bachmann or current Williams by Bachmann?

Pete

Sorry to hear that. Do you have any pictures of the locos?

If companies like Lionel, MTH, Williams, Bachmann, etc, etc, are going offshore to have things made, why not then hold those offshore installations to the same standard we were used to ? 

Because their customers aren't insisting on quality. Their most fervent supports insist there is nothing wrong.

Regardless, problems with Zinc Pest showed up from time to time with US made goods too. Some postwar transformer control shafts are prone to Zinc Pest, and I've seen some 1970's diesel truck sides with it.

I intend to be 100% zinc free in O gauge, or mighty close to it....in a year.  Time just to get rid of this inferior material altogether !

I have a 681 Turbine frame that is cracking and swelling due to zinc pest.

I just replaced two coilcouplers on a 20XX something diesel that failed for the same reason.

Were your trains touched by Gomez Addams?  On a serious note, sorry your trains are falling apart!

ZERO  die cast in your fleet is going to be tough....if not near impossible. Most wheels and trucks are die cast......couplers too.  Brass locos and cars are out there.....limits what and how much you can find.

I've had a few couplers and bolsters fall apart. A bit of epoxy glue made them usable again (if not stronger). A lot depends upon if the pieces will fit together  or if you just have a pile of powder/fragments

A year or so ago I bought an AF pre-war steamer cheap because one driver had the zinc rot and the seller couldn't find a replacement. I brought it home and checked it out-the one driver was  getting bad but still together so I took some of that metal in a tube(epoxy with metal fines) and patched it. So far it is still holding.

Wow.  I would to see pictures also.

I had a set of Williams ( pre Bachman) PRR Madison cars, looked great. Bought them in the 90"s.  Ran then for about a month and then shelved them. About 4 yrs ago I decided to run then on the layout and when I went to get them off the shelf, the trucks completely disintegrated. Wheels fell off and that was it for those cars.  Talked to a Williams dealer and he said yeh there were problems ( paid $250 for a 5 car set).  Well it was too bad for me.  I sold the cars for $75.  Of course when I talked to the Williams by Bachman guys at York, they just brushed me off.  I haven't bought a Williams product since.  Not because of the faulty trucks on those great looking passenger cars, but because of the brushoff I got from them  at the show.  They could have at least been nice to me hahahaha.  

Remember the current WBB guys did not work for Williams in the 90's.  WBB is not the same company that made your trains.  

OH, I realize that, just thought they could have been nicer. I was not trying to get any kind of refund or anything, just thought I would get some kind of conversation in stead of a quick brushoff.

"Inferior material" - I hardly think so. "Perfect material" - not that either. 

I wish that there was a way to actually determine, in an approximate but rational and non-ideological way, how many of us have had this issue, and how many pieces - the number - have been affected. In my case, the percentage of zinc-problem-pieces has been very small.

The number is bigger than you think.   Been in the hobby business for a loooong time, and this crap affects a lot more stuff than just trains.  It's time to find another material for the jobs currently using zinc.  It's getting a lot harder to control this issue, so it's clearly time to get a handle on it.  Too bad you had trouble with Williams.  Back when Jerry had it, you might have gotten better treatment..      Lionel now has tender shells for the U.P. water tender that blew up on me a couple years ago. They won't sell me one, because they need them to cover possible blow-ups on the current run !    Sez they !  Do you believe this?   

Yes, probably the current Bachman company did not make those trains.  But they did buy the Williams name, tooling, and product line.  I am sure they intended/desired to keep that customer base.  In business accounting,  that customer base, dealer chain, name recognition etc. is called "goodwill".  The dollar value you pay for, when you buy a company that is over and above the value of the hard assets.  In some cases, that number may be a negative during the purchase.  One way to keep that goodwill is to treat your customers nicely, with respect, etc.  Give them good customer service. The US automakers learned that, as did many other companies.

A smart person would have listened to the problem and try to help find a solution for the customer; an alternate part number, newer/better replacement parts, or just genuine sympathy.  Ever watch the movie Miracle on 34th St, where Macy's is sending customers to Gimbel's to find what they need?

So now I am worried that my MPC GG1 and aluminum congressional set, that has been stored in an un-heated and un-cooled attic, will be dust when I take a look at them after twenty plus years....

I have been in the hobby for a lot of years and have never seen this issue on my trains.  I have a very large number of trains.  I do know it does exist and is a real situation.  I had a friend buy a used  MTH PS-1 locomotive and the smoke unit was badly rotted.   I have two of the  mentioned UP tenders and no issue exists.  Could the issue be temp and humidity?  I have no idea.  I am sure someone who knows the cause can show up on this post.  

So now I am worried that my MPC GG1 and aluminum congressional set, that has been stored in an un-heated and un-cooled attic, will be dust when I take a look at them after twenty plus years....

Zinc Rot, also called Zinc Pest, only affects items made from Zamak. So yes, your GG-1 could develop it. Your passenger cars are primarily made from aluminum. The trucks could develop Zinc Pest, but not the bodies.

Zinc Pest can take years to show up. Humidity is thought to accelerate the process. Here is a wiki article on the subject: Zinc Pest

I try to store my trains in climate controlled spaces. I don't spend time worrying about my trains developing Zinc Pest. IMHO, rust is a much bigger problem. I don't lie awake worrying about rust either.

For anyone interested, I have some pairs of Weaver plastic trucks with stamped steel wheels. No die cast here.

C W Burfle posted:

So now I am worried that my MPC GG1 and aluminum congressional set, that has been stored in an un-heated and un-cooled attic, will be dust when I take a look at them after twenty plus years....

 

Zinc Rot, also called Zinc Pest, only affects items made from Zamak. So yes, your GG-1 could develop it. Your passenger cars are primarily made from aluminum. The trucks could develop Zinc Pest, but not the bodies.

Zinc Pest can take years to show up. Humidity is thought to accelerate the process. Here is a wiki article on the subject: Zinc Pest

I try to store my trains in climate controlled spaces. I don't spend time worrying about my trains developing Zinc Pest. IMHO, rust is a much bigger problem. I don't lie awake worrying about rust either.

 

Oh Thank God.  I haven't slept for days..........LOL

jaygee posted:

[...] It's getting a lot harder to control this issue...

jaygee nailed it.  Although one poster mentioned a 681, the vast majority of postwar and MPC Lionel still has good integrity after 60 years.  Humidity is a contributing factor, but IMO the #1 cause is poor control of the batch or use of contaminated material.  Lionel had it figured out, and even the earliest MTH made in Korea seems trouble-free.  Most of the cases we're hearing about now are trains made in China less than 20 yrs ago.

It will be tough to avoid exposure to this problem... Even brass locos often have die-cast zamak gearboxes (which fortunately, can be replaced.)  I don't lose any sleep over it though, because there's no way to tell what's going to happen.  And I'm not worried about whether my trains will still be intact after I'm gone 

One more thing I would like to add... Imagine how disappointed our predecessors were when the wheels of their prized 390E and American Flyer Pipers crumbled in the 1950s.  Those trains were probably relegated to a shelf, or even worse, the trash.  Along comes the TCA and a few enterprising individuals start casting new wheels, frames, etc.  Now many of those locos are riding the rails again.  When there's a market for something, there's always hope.  And with the advent of CNC machining, 3-D printing, etc., more so now than in the past.  -Ted

Imagine how disappointed our predecessors were when the wheels of their prized 390E and American Flyer Pipers crumbled in the 1950s.  Those trains were probably relegated to a shelf, or even worse, the trash.

Lionel offered replacement wheels in 1950.
I have some brass replacement wheels, the seller claimed that they came from the Madison Hardware auction. I've otherwise never seen or heard of them. I have no idea who made them or when.

Here is something scary : A common 22 LR pistol made to look like a Colt 1911 45ACP semi-auto pistol and a bunch of other 22LR clones of various other guns frames are made of Zamack, pot metal, zinc alloy. Manufacturers do it because it makes the pricing of these guns cheap. I have pointed out the problems with zinc alloys to these owners and they put me down. I did not know about this problem of the zinc falling apart over time. Interesting!

LDBennett

 I did not know about this problem of the zinc falling apart over time

It's not a problem if the manufacturer has good quality control and follows proper process.

I own about 12 pre Bachmann Williams(Williams only) engines and never had a problem with any falling apart of any metal. The engines are not as detailed as MTH or Lionel but run a whole lot better. I have around 18 passenger cars that are from the Crown Edition when Jerry Williams owned the company and the only issue is that 6 cars; the couplers are the non-opening type. I have the Plasticville freight cars from WBB and so far no problems with them.

Had a caboose that the window inserts came unglued and fell out, otherwise no issues with any frame or couplers coming apart.

Any metal issues with Williams is news to me! Never had any trouble with Williams other then putting tie wraps on the couplers to keep the couplers closed on some older GP-9's.

I had a couple of K-Line heavyweight passenger cars that the trucks fell apart when I used them the first time on the track. 

Lee Fritz

C W Burfle posted:

So now I am worried that my MPC GG1 and aluminum congressional set, that has been stored in an un-heated and un-cooled attic, will be dust when I take a look at them after twenty plus years....

 

Zinc Rot, also called Zinc Pest, only affects items made from Zamak. So yes, your GG-1 could develop it. Your passenger cars are primarily made from aluminum. The trucks could develop Zinc Pest, but not the bodies.

Zinc Pest can take years to show up. Humidity is thought to accelerate the process. Here is a wiki article on the subject: Zinc Pest

I try to store my trains in climate controlled spaces. I don't spend time worrying about my trains developing Zinc Pest. IMHO, rust is a much bigger problem. I don't lie awake worrying about rust either.

 

Zamak is not the alloy that suffered from zinc pest -- it was the alternative alloy manufacturers began using after other zinc alloys with impurities resulted in long term problems. The citation is included in this Wikipedia article, and others have reported on it, as well.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zamak

Recent zinc pest problems resulting from some Chinese manufacturing could very well involve impurities, but we don't know that the castings are Zamak. 

LDBennett posted:

Here is something scary : A common 22 LR pistol made to look like a Colt 1911 45ACP semi-auto pistol and a bunch of other 22LR clones of various other guns frames are made of Zamack, pot metal, zinc alloy. Manufacturers do it because it makes the pricing of these guns cheap. I have pointed out the problems with zinc alloys to these owners and they put me down. I did not know about this problem of the zinc falling apart over time. Interesting!

LDBennett

There is a Colt .45 which falls apart every summer.  Of course they are known by their modern name:  HOUSTON ASTROS!  But they do play at Minute Maid Park at the old Union Station, and a 4-4-0 runs when they hit a homer!

Zamak is not the alloy that suffered from zinc pest

I think we may be dealing with an issue of language.

The Wiki article on Zamak states: "A large problem with early zinc die casting materials was zinc pest, owing to impurities in the alloys.^[4] Zamak avoided this by the use of 99.99% pure zinc metal, produced by New Jersey Zinc's use of a refluxer as part of the smelting process"

The articles that discuss Zamac and Zinc pest generally say that impurities in the alloy cause it. Those impurities don't have to come from the supplier's ingots. They can be introduced by poor manufacturing process.
The composition charts from Eastern Alloys indicate that all types of Zamac contain 3.7 to 4.3 percent aluminum, so todays product cannot be 99.9 percent zinc.
The site includes a table of characteristics of six different types of Zamac. I thought it to be interesting.

LDBennett posted:

Here is something scary : A common 22 LR pistol made to look like a Colt 1911 45ACP semi-auto pistol and a bunch of other 22LR clones of various other guns frames are made of Zamack, pot metal, zinc alloy. Manufacturers do it because it makes the pricing of these guns cheap. I have pointed out the problems with zinc alloys to these owners and they put me down. I did not know about this problem of the zinc falling apart over time. Interesting!

LDBennett

Wylie Coyote comes to mind.....