Exploring control options, seeking opinions

By "cab control", it sounds like you mean you're controlling your trains conventionally.  DCC is usually 2-Railer term (O, HO, N, etc.).  Which scale are you running?   Are you talking about running three rail O gauge trains conventionally?

How about the scale you run, the make/model of the specific locomotives in question, and the actual make/model of the transformers under discussion?

OK. 3-rail O gauge. Conventional AC transformers. Two Lionel Type V, One Lionel KW, and an American Flyer one circa 1940 that I think says Model 8B. I have a range of locomotives: MTH E6, E8, FA2, and 0-4-0 Docksider, Williams F7 and E7, Lionel E6 4-4-2, Weaver USRA 4-6-2 and 2-8-2.

Yes, the layout is divided into blocks, and rotary switches connect blocks to different transformers, although switch machines/relays route power to single track sections depending on switch position.

I believe DCC is not for 3 rail O Gauge.

Command Control for 3 rail O Gauge usually means DCS for MTH Proto 2 or 3, Legacy or TMCC for Lionel and ERR (sp?) which I know next to nothing about.

IMO, a great way to get started with command control is LionChief, LionChief + or LionChief +2.0. It's so simple and user friendly that my 6 year old granddaughter was running a LionChief+ locomotive using the handheld remote within 30 seconds after I showed her how to use it. Also, these LionChief options involve no special wiring.

After I ran some LionChief+ locomotives for a couple of months, I then installed a DCS handheld remote set with a TIU, got Barry Boskowitz' book which is the DCS Bible, and have been very satisfied and happy running DCS (only the basic functions) for the past 3 years. My DCS has worked like a charm. Arnold

PS: I also enjoy running the 3 Legacy engines I have using the LionChief Universal Remote.

OK, so if DCS and Legacy are not available, what kinds of new transformers do you recommend? I'm not interested in LionChief as I generally seek particular locomotives that are not available in that form.

@MikeH posted:

The old transformers can sometimes ruin modern electronics found in new engines.  If you're going to continue operating modern trains, explore new transformers first (or TVS diodes at least - do a forum search for that term

Old transformers do not ruin modern electronics found in new engines any more than modern ones do.

It's not that transformers create the spikes, they are caused rather by shorts, circuit openings, and the collapsing of current in inductive fields(transformers included). The use & specification of TVS diodes is not really dependent on the type of transformer, but rather the operating voltage range of the equipment, and to select a balance/specification to allow the equipment to operate satisfactorily while clamping over-voltages at the minimum possible.

@Ken Wing posted:

OK. 3-rail O gauge. Conventional AC transformers. Two Lionel Type V, One Lionel KW, and an American Flyer one circa 1940 that I think says Model 8B. I have a range of locomotives: MTH E6, E8, FA2, and 0-4-0 Docksider, Williams F7 and E7, Lionel E6 4-4-2, Weaver USRA 4-6-2 and 2-8-2.

Yes, the layout is divided into blocks, and rotary switches connect blocks to different transformers, although switch machines/relays route power to single track sections depending on switch position.

The price of replacement transformers might be a lot less than you think.  The market for them has dropped due to everyone moving to "command systems".  I've been to a lot of train shows this fall and could have bought ZW's for $100.  I bought a Filthy KW for $15, took it apart it looked almost new inside.  Lots of elbow grease.  I replaced 2 of the studs, the top plastic "A control" cap and the whistle lever.  Plus I have the pride of turning trash into treasure.  Into it for $22.50 now.

BTW what you have may not be that hard to fix, parts are readily available.  But maybe you really just want to "move up".

And then there is the new kid on the block (well not so new been around since the 90's ) Dead Rail!

Ken W.

Vintage Lionel transformers (KW, ZW) can be repaired; then they are good for another 10,000 miles!  If you're not savvy about repairing them with replacement parts, enter "Lionel Transformer Repair" via Google search. Vendors are out there.  I sent a KW to a vendor for refurbishment, and he did an A+ job at a reasonable price. Unfortunately S&H back and forth was pricey because of the weight of the KW.

Later on, I added TMCC locos to my collection, so I retired the KW and converted to Lionel "bricks" for track power with a TMCC Command Base and a CAB1 hand-held controller. Then I added a Lionel PowerMaster, which enabled control of conventional locos via the CAB1.

Mike Mottler    LCCA 12394

Fascinating. Appreciate all the different perspectives. Was totally unfamiliar with Dead Rail Society. Don't think it's for me since it relies on DCC decoders, but interesting to learn about. I have repaired a couple of transformers in the past, but since neither of those is now working, somewhat chagrined about doing so. The dead Type V has me baffled. I can see that one carbon wheel broke in half and I got those pieces out, but don't know why nothing else works (circuit breaker seems good). Given that no O gauge command systems are currently available new, it seems the only real options are new transformers, more rebuilt transformers from shows, or repair my own.

I think I may just take a break from the layout, set up some trains around the tree, and let this decision simmer a while.

@Dave Koehler posted:

And then there is the new kid on the block (well not so new been around since the 90's ) Dead Rail!

Plus 1.  No fuss no muss.  No more track power issues.

@Ron045 posted:

Plus 1.  No fuss no muss.  No more track power issues.

Ron the obscene thought of running 3R equipment without a center rail keeps entering my head.  I know from other posts you run Dead Rail.  Is there a nice tidy article, post or website that gives all the information on "current" (pun intended) technology to do this.

I have mentioned numerous times I was in HO prior to this, but rarely talked about flying RC Planes and Helis.  Electric power has basically killed off Glow (Nitro) on small to midsize planes.  I am sold on the potential, just need some guidance on how to implement so I can figure the cost involved.  Biggest concern is "range anxiety", how much power does a Scale Steam Loco pulling a train consume?  In RC you only fly for 5 to 10 minutes at a time.

If you don't plan on command locos, a reconditioned postwar transformer by a knowledgeable repair person sounds like a plan, since that's what you've been content with up until now.

@MainLine Steam posted:

Is there a nice tidy article, post or website that gives all the information on "current" (pun intended) technology

Jim,

@BOB WALKER has an article in OGR Run 314, "Leading Edge Wireless Locomotive Control".

I have a bunch on YT videos on the subject, which then YT will probably recommend others.

I have started with BlueRail because you could use MTH engines in DCC mode.  So the wiring setup is easy.  Then I ditched the PS3 stuff for Soundtraxx sound and oh my goodness is it 1000 times better.

You can still get BlueRail and mate it with any DCC sound decoder.  But if you are patient, BlueRail and Soundtraxx have combined to create Blunami.  The product is out now in HO and the O version is due out early next year.

I also use RailPro which is simple and easy to set up and install.  The Hand held controller is good also.

I like both systems very much but ever since upgrading to the Soundtraxx with BlueRail board, I am having a ton of fun with ultra slow speed control, momentum and braking.

My layout is 15x33 and have never had a range issue.  I did a video with a range test on BlueRail and operated a train from over 100 feet away.

Since you are familiar with RC you will know that planes and cars need a lot of energy, quickly.  That is why you only get short flights.

Trains are different.  Do not use LiPo batts.  They need balance leads and can be difficult to charge.  Look at LiIon with PCB control.  Easy to charge and my batts never leave the engine.  I run mostly 14.8v 3500 mah batts.  I do run a couple with 11.1v without issue also.  My run times have exceeded 3 hours on continuous running.  I typically can run trains for days before charging.  And while one is charging I just run a different one.

Here is one to wet your whistle.  Feel free to reach out if you want to discuss more.

Ron

Your engines sound mostly conventional. The problem as you have stated is right now command control is sort of vaporware phase, the old systems are no longer being made, and the new ones are like Fusion power, seem to be always in the future.

If you just want to run conventional, as others have said, you can get older transformers that are in good shape for not a lot, ZW's at shows are like 100 bucks or so in decent shape. Some of your engines (I think) support command control depending on the actual model of the engines, given you, if the MTH does it is DCS, the lionel and weaver would be tmcc. With an older transformer the only non secret secret is that you should have fast blow breakers on the outputs to the track and have tvs (transient voltage spike protection, basically a kind of diode) across the power and return power (you can do it across the transformer terminals for return/power). This helps protect the circuit boards and whatnot in the trains that would have trouble with high current and or /transient voltage spikes, the breaker and the tvs protect against that.

If your current transformers are in otherwise okay shape, you could have them rebuilt if you don't want to do it yourself. As others have said, the shipping can kill you, might be easier going to a train show and buying decent ones there and replace your current ones unless you are attached to them.

Another alternative to conventional control is to use any kind of power source (the bricks people mention, that are basically a power supply) and legacy power master units. With that, you can use a tmcc or the like command controller to vary voltage to the track and run conventionally albeit remotely, but the kicker there of course is the lack of command systems, and buying used isn't so easy.

Given the wait for new command control systems, what I am doing is wiring for standard block control/cab control using transformer handles, and then when/if the command bases show up I'll wire them in and use them, my current transformers are perfectly fine as a power source for either DCS and or/Base 3.

Awhile ago I purchased a TMCC Cab 1 and a ZW-L transformer. I have one NEW Lionel Legacy F7 Set, and quite a few older Legacy locomotives.  I tend to buy 2000- 2008 or so TMCC or Legacy engines, and have been very happy with them.  My observations:

ZW-L: great transformer.  It took a couple of years before I figured out that I could run my conventional postwar engines, and that is a great feature.  (You can also do that using an older transformer and power bricks.)  I have separate circuit breakers even though the ZW-L has them already. 

TMCC Cab 1 vs. Legacy:  I have been happy with the Cab1- it has many features, not AS many as a Legacy system, but I like things a little more simple.  It has been very reliable.

New vs. older NOS Engines: the Lionel Legacies from the first generation are great.  They (many anyway) have sound that is very good, lots of features.  One is that they often have "crew talk" which references the specific road number.

"Pre-owned" TMCC and Legacy:  I have bought a couple of these.  I think that (a) the ones from the early 2000s were very well-made, (b) if a used one, IF there were "bugs" they have already been corrected.

@Ken Wing posted:

OK, so if DCS and Legacy are not available, what kinds of new transformers do you recommend? I'm not interested in LionChief as I generally seek particular locomotives that are not available in that form.

Lionel has a new control box coming this month, dec 2022 which will use your phone and its own wifi channel that will run all your stuff, lionel, mth, williams...mth has promised a new dcs contol unit soom but since there is only 3 or 4 people working in mth, im doubtful. Buy a lionel 180 powermaster brick replacing your transformers, get that lional coltol uint and use their software with your phone. Rumor has it that lionel will, later in 2023,  ome out with a control box specifically to run both lionel and mth/atlas. Gary j

"Lionel has a new control box coming this month, dec 2022"

If this is the Base 3, latest gossip is it's later in 2023, maybe much later.  I agree that a good option for remote control of conventional locos is the Powermaster and Powerhouse combo or the ZW-L, but you'll need a Legacy base to get command control, and that's discontinued and only available on the used market, mostly at fairly steep premiums over MSRP.  Good question is whether the cab-1L, recently in production and available, can control the Legacy Powermaster and ZW-L for conventional operation.  If so, that's another practical and available solution.

Of all the control setups I have used which includes conventional, TMCC and LC, battery powered wireless seems to be the most trouble free and can be brought anywhere to run without difficulty.

I really appreciate all the information and ideas.  Sounds like I should try to repair my own until I can get to a show to buy a refurbished one.

Can you be specific as to part numbers and sources for recommended external circuit breakers and TVS diodes?

Also, a source for replacement parts for the Type V?