Well, I seem to have misplaced the set of fast acting circuit breakers that I purchased three years ago. I was planning to use them on my post-war ZW transformer.
If anyone can refresh my memory as to where to buy them and what to look for, please HELP !!
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I believe I found them on Mouser Electronics.
Dan, I use those on each channel with DCS. I can run three modern engines with smoke and be at 4 amps. The 5 amp version may not be high enough for older motors, but 5amps cover everything I run on one loop. They aren't as fast as electronic models, but they trip fast in a short. I use the 3 amp ones for buildings and lights to protect the smaller wires I use there. The buildings and lights are powered with 300 watt computer power supply that has such a fast overload protection that I have never had a 3 amp breaker trip.
Dan, I use those exact models from Mouser... I chose the 8 AMP rating and my experience has been that they trip very quickly during a derailment. I have been really pleased with how well these work for over 5 years now. I think I drilled a 5/8" diameter hole with a forstner bit and used a small dab of DAP 3.0 black sealant in the hole to anchor them.
Dan,
I use the 10 Amp Resettable Breaker Banks you can purchase them at Train Electrics LLC, you must call to order however 231-631-0047. I like the set of 4 Breaker Bank, easy to install and use.
PCRR/Dave
In the photo there is a set of them just to the right of the DCS HHRC.
Thanks for all the replies. The 8 AMP may be the way to go. I've been used to lower amperages with my LGB stuff, getting used to higher amps from smaller trains seems odd.
Dan,
Hay the 8 Amper's are great, I had some 7 Amp Breaker Banks from the original company Train Electrics bought out (Scotts), however they are no longer available from the new company, and I donated the 2 resettable Breaker Banks long ago, thinking I could purchase more anytime I needed them. Very foolish move on my part, even worse that Penn Hills layout is not being done any more. Bummer.
PCRR/Dave
Dan Padova posted:I believe I found them on Mouser Electronics.
Dan, those are thermal breakers, which I think is all that you need. Fast-acting breakers are at least an order of magnitude more expensive.
I have a 5 amp and 8 amp being shipped from Newark as we speak.
I've been researching circuit protection for my ZW as well. Yesterday at my local electronics supply store, I picked up 2 circuit breakers: a 5 amp and a 10 amp (both thermal breakers), hooked them up to my ZW, and here's how they compare to the trip time of the breaker inside the ZW as well as the breaker on a modern MTH Z750:
ZW internal breaker: 3.79 seconds
10-amp external breaker: 2.95 seconds
5-amp external breaker: 1.12 seconds
MTH Z750 internal breaker: .43 seconds.
Quite a difference here. How fast is needed for adequate protection?
John
BlueComet400 posted:
Quite a difference here. How fast is needed for adequate protection?
What load?
What are you trying to protect? Breakers are for current protection only. Won't save electronics.
I'm trying to protect the few modern MTH trains that I own. I've recently invested in upgrading a PS1 loco to PS3 and don't want to lose any of the electronics. I run mostly prewar.
Breakers are for transformer & wiring protection from over-current, not the trains & electronics, which need over-voltage protection from spikes & transients(many of which happen during a short or derailment).
By the time even the fastest electronic or electromagnetic breakers trip the damage has been done... and it is cumulative. Very akin to hearing loss.
Using fast acting breakers will not do any damage, though.
What you need for the electronics is Transient Voltage Suppression.
Thanks, Rob. I thought the purpose of the breakers was to protect the electronics of our modern trains. That being the case, what do you suggest to protect the trains?
Many thanks,
John
What you need for the electronics is Transient Voltage Suppression.
Ok, thanks Rob. I bought 3 of them yesterday when I bought the breakers; I saw on another thread the ones that Gunrunner recommends, but I wasn't sure what they're for. I'll study the posts in the link you gave me and go from there. If I understand correctly, the TVS protects the electronics in the trains / accessories, and the breakers protect everything else on the layout. Correct?
Thanks again,
John
John,
If you are running DCS the TIU has built in TVS protection, nothing more is required, if not then you must to rig something else up, couple different ways the guys are doing it.
PCRR/Dave
BlueComet400 posted:...If I understand correctly, the TVS protects the electronics in the trains / accessories, and the breakers protect everything else on the layout. Correct?
Well, you are still talking two types of protection.
TVS installation will protect everything on that circuit from overvoltage/spikes.
The breakers that transformers come with are ample to protect themselves from over current. The advantage to smaller breakers for various power districts is to provide more over current protection for wiring that is undersized, and also if one breaker trips it doesn't shut down power from the entire transformer.
John,
Rob is correct, you definitely want some kind of TVS protection thru out your layout and you also want the fast acting 7-10 Amp Resettable Breakers between your Transformer and your TIU, on every Red line leading to your mid track, especially when using the old ZW's & KW's with their slow blowing old type Internal Breakers. I even use them with my modern Transformers, easy to install and easy to use and they safe guards your layout.
PCRR/Dave
Dave, I went to that company's web site and they don't sell the 10 amp resettable breaker anymore. Any ideas?
Mike,
They are not listed on the web sight, you must call the company and ask for them, for that reason I listed Train Electric telephone number for the members of OGR to be able to contact them when I was answering one of Dan's posts.
PCRR/Dave
Thanks Dave, no how about a place to get a MTH Side receiver? LOL
Ok, one last question: if I understand correctly, the TVS protects the train's electronics from voltage spikes, and the breaker protects the transformer and other wiring in the event of a short. If that's the case, what protects the train's electronics in the event of a derailment?
Thanks again,
John
BlueComet400 posted:Ok, one last question: if I understand correctly, the TVS protects the train's electronics from voltage spikes, and the breaker protects the transformer and other wiring in the event of a short. If that's the case, what protects the train's electronics in the event of a derailment?
Thanks again,
John
Depends on the derailment event...some will short out and exceed your over current device(fuse or breaker trips)...other derailments or incidents will remain under current(fuse or breaker did not trip)......either case the TVS's will be at work.
BlueComet400 posted:what protects the train's electronics in the event of a derailment?
In the event of a derailment w/o a short circuit, a TVS will clamp transients caused by the interruption of current. In the event of a derailment w/ a short circuit, a TVS will clamp transients caused by the surges while the derailment/short is occurring.
A TVS will also continually clamp transients caused by the surges/interruptions that occur as a result of transmitting electric current along the rails to a moving appliance using that current on the rails(rollers/contacts/pickups/wheels) that we see as sparking(but goes on even w/o visible sparking). Since the electronics on-board the train seldom if ever create the short circuit unless they fail, there is typically no fuse or breaker on board for this event. A bi-directional TVS in each locomotive would be ideal.
Thanks guys. Dan, my apologies for hijacking the thread, but this seemed like a good place to insert my related questions rather than start another thread on this much-belabored topic.
John
Pine Creek Railroad posted:Dan,
I use the 10 Amp Resettable Breaker Banks you can purchase them at Train Electrics LLC, you must call to order however 231-631-0047. I like the set of 4 Breaker Bank, easy to install and use.
PCRR/Dave
In the photo there is a set of them just to the right of the DCS HHRC.
Hi Dave,
Do you have another number for Train Electrics? I just tried this one and it's the wrong number. Thanks.
John
You ought to check out the this solid state breaker from Powershield.
PSX-AC - Intelligent Circuit Breaker for AC 2 and 3 Rail
Several forum members use it; perhaps they will comment on it.
Jan
A TVS for your pwZW: wired "U" to "A" {or on B,C,D also} 1.5KE.36 CA
3 Transient Voltage Suppressors (TVS) . About $.50 each.
John,
I just called that number and the LLC answering service answered the call, I am waiting for Neil's return call now, to verify that he is still in operation and making the Resettable Breakers.
PCRR/Dave
I just found the number for Train Electrics. Neil was kind enough to return my phone call, but unfortunately, he closed the business about 18 months ago.
John,
Now that is a bummer I will have to look for another small business, making the original type Resettable Breakers for us here on the OGR. Neil never even announced that he was closing the Train Electric LLC business. It has been now about 10 years sense he purchased the Scott's Odds & Ends business, which was a very profitable business at one time.
I talked to Neil the owner of Train Electric LLC today, he has officially retired and his business is fully closed now. Neil did not sell the business, most all his inventory has already been sold to customers. No Resettable Breakers left in stock, he has no plans to build any more Resettable Breaker Banks of any kind. He thanked us here on the OGR for all the Purchases thru the years, he advised me that because of the over head cost of doing business and his age, he decided to fully retire and close his Train Electric's business.
PCRR/Dave
I get my breakers from Defender Marine (www.defender.com). Push button reset.
Bluecomet, with a thermal breaker, open time depends on the overcurrent. A slight overcurrent takes awhile to blow.
RJR,
Exact name and inventory ID number please, they do not come up immediately on the Defender Marine Web sight you posted. They do sound interesting.
PCRR/Dave
Big Mike G,
I have been looking for you all over the place for the Side Receiver for the Z4K. Barry is correct again, they are becoming very hard to purchase. I will keep looking, from time to time somebody sells one on the Bay or Google. If you see one purchase it right away, I will purchase one for you if I see one surface. They go for about $39.99 - $50.00 now.
PCRR/Dave
Picture of the Z4000 Receiver in its original package. You can actually Daisy Chain this piece of MTH Technology, expanding your DCS HHRC package for Conventional Engines greatly.
https://www.defender.com/produ...r-10-amp&path=-1|328|2289980|2289984&id=825354
They are available in several amperage ratings.
They are also available, at higher prices, from West Marine.
https://www.westmarine.com/buy...06557607?recordNum=1
I have bought 5, 7, & 10 amp sizes.
RJR,
The defender sight has a problem right now, can't use it, what is the cost of each Resettable 5-7 Amp Individual Breaker.
Holy cow Westmarine wants $10.00 for a single Resettable Breaker, that means to set up (3) 4 Breaker Bank sets of 5-10 Amp Resettable Breakers, it's over $120.00 after shipping. Pretty steep cost for just adding them to a DCS Layout.
You can see why Neil at Train Electric's LLC was getting a lot of Resettable Breaker business from the guys here on the OGR, his were $10.50 for a Bank of 4, and later with the cost increase $12.00. Neil also sold them with the little plastic Bank holder, which was real handy, for our O Gauge Trains.
Having his Train Electric's LLC business close was definitely not a good thing for our O Gauge Train layouts.
PCRR/Dave
I got into defender site with no problems. Price is $5.95. Used to list them in both push on and screw terminals. They're also not listed in current hard copy catalog, which just came. These identical breakers I have seen under other brand names from other sources, but don't recall just where. West Marine has never been accused of being low-priced.
Grainger has something similar:
https://www.grainger.com/produ...kwid=productads-adid^166591538397-device^c-plaid^81032185677-sku^4VA63-adType^PLA
Googling "push button reset circuit breakers" came up with a whole boodle of similar breakers.
We have digressed a ways from Dan's post in which he answered his own question. Why not use the ones he found at Mouser? At $2 to $3 apiece, I think you could build your own little bracket or put them in a panel. They certainly work very well for me, and I have had my share of derailments.
John H posted:We have digressed a ways from Dan's post in which he answered his own question. Why not use the ones he found at Mouser? At $2 to $3 apiece, I think you could build your own little bracket or put them in a panel. They certainly work very well for me, and I have had my share of derailments.
John H, How fast do the Mouser breakers trip?
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