Final Layout Design... Thoughts?

It appears to be a good design, as you have a loop for continuous running with nice wide curves.  Then you have the inner loop with plenty of sidings for switching duties, that keep things interesting.  I like it.

It seems like a good plan. The one question I'd make sure you ask yourself is, "10 or more months from now, will I be bored with the layout?" If the answer may be yes, ask yourself what would make the layout more interesting. 

Are you modeling any prototypes, out of curiosity? 

I'll keep it brief for tonight and develop the discussion further tomorrow, but with my space limitations I don't know how much more I can add. I do worry about getting bored as I'm sure everyone does. I look to get the basics up first and then gradually add scenery over time. Tunnels and even a small elevation change on the outer loop are in my mind. I could see a corner mountain with tunnel in the back right. I have no prototypes in mind. Once again due to the size of my layout. These thoughts are why I am opening this up to further discussion! My biggest locomotive is a MTH Pemier GS4 Daylight. Most other locos are eastern railroads including WM, B&LE, Pennsylvania, and NYC.

We can call it the Alaska and SouthEastern Railroad. Then there are no limitations!

-Marc 

Not to send this topic off on a tangent, boredom can be acted upon just by keeping some new ideas in mind or making small changes to structures and scenery.   

I would suggest building it as a flat-table layout without fastening everything down with "permanent" scenery and ballast - unless building scenery is your favorite part of the hobby. What I like about O-gauge with sectional track is the ability to easily change things around for variety - especially with smaller track plans.

Thanks for the added feedback. One other consideration I have is that I will likely be moving in the next two years. With that in mind, I'm planning to build in three pieces so it is removable without too much hassle. Scenery etc is new to me. Previously I have only been able to build elaborate carpet centrals around the Christmas tree. I have great scenery ideas that will take time to build, which should take me a while to complete. 

On another note, does anyone foresee any wiring problems? Where will I need to put lockout? I know at least one on each loop, but where else?

-Marc

The only thing I see wrong is that the tracks might be too close to the front/back edges. It's always hard for me to tell in software, especially with RealTrax/FasTrack because of the roadbed.

As for the layout itself, I don't see anything wrong with it. Will it get boring? Of course it will, eventually, and how fast depends on how often you run trains. Will changing things around from time to time help keep it interesting? Probably, at least while you're making the changes. That did it when I was a kid, but now I'm not so sure. Back then I didn't have permanent space, so it was a different configuration every time I set things up.

That said, and as Ace suggests, I wouldn't get too attached to any single design or set of accessories. Right now you have a station that suggests passengers, a shed that suggests 2 passenger cars and an industrial spur that suggests some boxcars, etc. You have 2 ovals that suggests a passenger train and a freight train. Given the space, there's no place for passengers to go, so you have to envision them going somewhere and returning. The shed will let you pull passenger cars out, move to the platforms to pick passengers up, go for a run, then return to drop passengers off and put the cars away. Since there's no place for products to come from, you have to envision them (parts?) being delivered to the industry on the siding and others (finished products?) being picked up. It all seems logical to me.

Right now, I can't see a different use for the space, but I know there are a lot of different designs out there for small spaces that will fit. Whether or not they are something you'd find interesting is the question. There are only so many dual oval designs that will fit and moving spurs around a bit won't do much to eliminate the boredom. Even swapping out industries might not help much, though different action accessories might, something like coal to a power plant, lumber to a furniture company, etc. You can add a divider with different scenes on each side giving the impression of coming from one place and going somewhere else.

Hi Pittsburger,

I worked your plan up for fitment. I put in the O72 wye for the engine shed. The shed needs 5"-5.25" track centers. I also used an O72 switch for the siding next to shed.

I had to use an O72 curve at the top right to make it work. I have attached an MTH track combination chart and the RRT file, if that's what you are using. There's one place, between the two crossover switches, that is in between. You'll have to see which combo fits the best. Let me know if you need the track sizes, if you don't have RRT.

Design suggestion - you could make the spur nearest the Engine shed continue in that direction if you want more train/engine service or a spur to park cars or what ever on.  Perhaps the spur behind the passenger station could be for it also and have a passenger car set waiting for pick-up or a back-in for the station stop.

It is too wide.  Over 7 feet.  How will you reach the center to clean, repair, etc?  O scale layouts are notorious for being too wide.  30 inches is about the average person's maximum reach at waist high; so at no point should any layout be more than 60 inches across at an absolute maximum.  I've seen all the climbing on top, reaching with pool cues etc.  That's crazy.  Everyone tires of that quickly.

If any layout is over five feet wide there needs to be a provision, access hatch, or some other plan to keep everything within thirty inches of reach.

This reply is not intended to be received as negative.  It is merely an observation after forty years of education and practical experience in model railroad track design.  I'm hoping you re-consider prior to building this because you will discover that you cannot reach 42 inches in from either side; unless your Shaq!  :-)

John, he's already said he'll have a 2'x2' access hatch in the center.

Pittsburger posted:

Thanks for the added feedback. One other consideration I have is that I will likely be moving in the next two years. With that in mind, I'm planning to build in three pieces so it is removable without too much hassle ...

-Marc

When you move, you can't be sure that you will have the same size and shape of space available for the layout. At that point you might find it more practical, and more interesting, to entirely rebuild the layout to fit available space (larger or smaller). I would suggest you consider building your layout so it can be completely disassembled and reconfigured to better adapt to a new space if that need arises. In the meantime, you have a good practical plan on the drawing board for your current project.

An option you may want to consider is using a sectional track system such as fastrack, and not attaching the track to the table, as mentioned by ACE above. 

I build my layout on a flat table covered in plywood, then covered the table with carpet underpad. I painted the underpad using "earth coloured" laytex paint, with woodlands scenic coloured grass, dirt and some fine ballast (N-scale ballast) to give the layout a natural ground & grass look. 

With the  carpet underpad, you can run any wires under the underpad, bringing them through the underpad under the track (where ever the track may be) and connecting to the fastrack by using 0.011 connectors sized for fastrack.

Whenever I make changes to the layout, and that is quite often, I just move the track as needed, and move the buildings etc to fill the space available.

I have attached a few pictures of my layout. Let me know if you have any questions and I would be happy to provide answers, based on my learning curve over the past 18 years.

The layout with carpet underpad base, painted & textured with track. The buildings from the lower level are temporarily stored on the upper level: 

Layout with buildings & scenery added. All buildings and scenery trees are placed on layout, and can be easily removed. Any building wires for lighting poke through the underpad under the building, and are connected to the building wires.

This method has helped me evolve my layout over the years, allowing me to make countless upgrades and improvements. 

pittsburghrailfan posted:

It seems like a good plan. The one question I'd make sure you ask yourself is, "10 or more months from now, will I be bored with the layout?" If the answer may be yes, ask yourself what would make the layout more interesting. 

Great advice there.

My only suggestion would be to have at least one siding facing the opposite direction, as all your sidings are facing the same way right now. That's not very prototypical.

You could also add some additional sidings into the corners. The main line stays on the divergent track, and the siding uses the straight part of the switch. The siding may only hold 1 or 2 cars, however this can add switching interest to your layout, if switching interests you. 

Having sidings going in both directions then requires some run-around moves, which can also add interest to train layout operation.

DoubleDAZ posted:

John, he's already said he'll have a 2'x2' access hatch in the center.

Missed that!  Good...at least he'll not be crawling on it.  :-)

Moonman, first of all thanks for the images, especially the 3-D. It really makes me feel like what I'm getting myself into! I do have one more LH and one more RH 0-54 switch that I can put to use. I could add an additional spur off of the industrial siding and then potentially a corner siding like Joe suggested. However, if I add much more track, I will have NO space for a small town. Just having a station, yard, and industry does not sound like a very sustainable village!  John, as Double DAZ pointed out, I do plan to have an access hatch in the center. The opposing sidings has pros and cons in my mind. This is no prototypical layout so that is of no concern to me (it's roughly only about 0.25 scale miles around the outer mainline). I can't visualize any advantages to any opposing sidings. Also I have no way to reverse locomotives except for the manual turntable called my hands. No room for a turntable in my near future...  Oh well. There will always be things to improve and build upon. Half of the fun is dreaming up what you will do next!  

 I already have nearly all of the track in my inventory needed for the layout. Just a few odds and ends to purchase once I do indeed pick my final track plan. I think I have a few extra inches on either side, but I won't truly know until I start building. I'm hoping so, but not making the guarantee. Thus I am sticking to the 10'x7' as strictly as possible. 

I would like to add the mountain in the right corner as I discussed, but that is for later down the road. Perhaps I can find a model of one of the Pittsburgh inclines to travel to the top and bring passengers to the station. Who knows! The 

As for the moving remarks, I plan to build the benchwork in three pieces. One 4 feet wide with the variable end and then two 3'x7'. The legs will be removable so that I can relocate them. I feel these sizes will be useful in the future. If not, they can be used partially as a future workbench or adapted into shelving. 

Keep the thoughts coming! I'll try and post some potential revisions tomorrow evening if I have the opportunity. 

Thanks again,

Marc 

Marc, while I generally favor track over landscaping, I think you've got a nice balance for a small layout and I wouldn't add any more spurs. If I did, I'd add one to the upper right and paint a faux building on the wall to give the spur a reason for being there. I don't know if you have any plans to paint the wall or add some kind of backdrop.

I do like Carl's idea for the track nearest the shed. Running it along the shed and parking freight cars there and a passenger car or 2 on the other spur will add visual interest. If you add some trees between them, it will give that area some separation.

Mac,

I like the Layout . It looks like it will have a lot of action.

That's a good thing.

Good luck, John

Below are a few of the suggested additions. Thoughts? I'm not sure how I feel about them yet.

Thanks again,

Marc

I like the addition of the 2nd spur inside, but am ambivalent about the 2 on the outside curves. In my mind, there's not enough room for a large enough building to justify a railroad delivery/pickup unless you do some creative painting on the wall to make a building appear larger than it is. But if you just want some added switching action, they give you that. I don't believe in a single-track spur just for the sake of having a spur. Is a single-track spur realistic?

Looks good to me! A nice, small, and compact layout with lots of switching and scenic opportunities. I would hold off on adding an additional switch onto the spur line. You won't really be able to fit much on it if it's curved.

Personally, I'm not excited about switching a bunch of short spurs. You might consider putting a couple switches on the outside oval to allow possible addition of a wye off one corner, with the tail track going off to yard or train layover tracks on a long narrow shelf - if you can find available space in one direction. In my book that does a lot to enhance operation on a small layout.

I would love to add a extra wye and siding along the outside, but I don't think I have the space. I go back and forth about the extra sidings. I need to make sure that I can get a switcher or another locomotive in to access the cars housed on the sidings. I don't think adding track for one car is all that beneficial. I see the sidings by the shed as storage for extra passenger cars. As for the industrial siding, I'm looking at the Menard's Dakota Cabinet Factory where I can leave a few box cars. I'll have two passenger sets and a freight set on the rails. There will certainly be a lot going on!

-Marc 

Very nice layout and great suggestions from everyone

Hey Marc,

Which software are you using?

I would suggest that you fit in an uncoupler track and perhaps the 5" insulated track (to turn siding power on/off) on some or all of the sidings to provide train control to add to the operational value.

The extra sidings off of the corners will only work if they have a purpose.

Take a look at this series of videos to get some ideas.  - LCGJ& I Lines You can do a lot on a small layout operationally. I always liked this layout video series because it demonstrates operational value. Take some time in a few sittings a check out all of them.

Here's a 3D where I added a fuel tank and water tower behind the engine shed and a sanding tower, water spout and fuel filler on the siding.

Carl,

I like the thoughts. I am using the free software that came with the MTHRRC membership. It is called RR-Track Lite I think. I plan to add two or so uncoupling tracks in. With The uncoupling tracks, do I need to place the coupler in the middle of the track or can it be anywhere on the track? I have not used them before. I'm thinking the 10" straight between the yard spur and the station up front for one and then another on the opposite side by the industrial spur. 

I have also done a little reading on other forum topics suggesting to isolate the sidings as you mentioned. I want to make sure I don't give up too much space in the process. Would using the first straight track of each siding work? I would probably do all five of the major sidings. 

-Marc 

Marc,

So, I am guessing that your version won't open the full version RRT files. I have attached a part number labeled track plan to help you with the fitment.

Siding power control - yes, the first track would work for that. There is a 5" RealTrax piece for (40-1029) isolation that would let you simply put a switch in line for the center rail power.

Uncoupler -(40-1008)I would place that as the second track in the siding. Then, it allows you to cut a few cars out, depending on the length of the siding. Oh, the piece is on the middle rail by design to pull on the car's coupler magnet.

Finally, you need to consider an accessory operating track (Same as uncoupler) if you plan to use an accessory of that type.

Thanks Carl! I'm looking forward to the build. I'm still a few weeks and will let you know how it goes. 

Hope everyone had a good weekend!

Marc 

Hello everyone,

The build has begun! I have built a test track and all of the frames are built with a homasote top. I'm in the process of adding the legs. At this point, I am looking for a little input on how to texture the surface. I am looking at several options at various price points. The layout is finalized as 10'x7' with the tapered edge on the right. I have explored getting the fake grass carpeting as an option. Alternately I am looking at the woodland scenics ballasts and grass bottles. Does anyone have suggestions here? I definitely like the look of the woodland scenic materials more, but how difficult is it to apply and make look good? If I use the powders, what is the best way to apply it? Elmer glue and water as a adhesive seems like a viable method, but any opinions would be appreciated!

Thanks,

Marc 

P.S. I will post pictures of my progress soon!

Marc,

Take a look at the Woodland Scenic vinyl grass mats. They can be shaped with a heat gun to cover terrain and can be scraped for roads and sidewalks and such. Watch some of the videos on WS site.

Recently I have seen a few layouts that have been built using a brown/tan combination color tight weave commercial or outdoor type with a thick backing. They look ok.

Just tossing some other methods out to see what you like.

White glue and the various ground textures are definitely nice. Most paint areas with a base earth tone color latex on the homosote before applying the textures.

Thanks for the update.

Carl,

I definitely like the woodland scenics materials. Do you have any experience using it? I want to have an idea of the time it would take to set up as well as the ease of use. From the looks of things, just the mats would be around $80 and each additional feature would be $15-20 each. Probably a total of ~$150 by the time its all said and done. Are there any cheaper options that will still look nice? I would like to not break the bank, but also not have it look like junk.

Thanks again,

Marc 

The mats are more of a time saver. White glue, brushes and jars of material look the best, even if it's your first time using it.

Eric's trains has a few nice video's of putting down the scenic turf. Woodland scenic has couple of them, also.

Eric's trains - videos -tutorials - building mountains or building tunnels - find the part of the episode where he is applying scenic material.

YouTube has some good videos, too.  Scale doesn't matter, it's technique and result.

Paint the table with an earth tone color latex paint that's close to the region your railroad is located. Then glue and sprinkle the material.

The small hand held vacuums are good for cleaning up the extra and keeping it clean to reuse. Just keep a fresh filter for the material.

oh, I forgot to mention Brennan's Better ballasts. Dennis also has scenic material. Eric uses both manufacturers. Different colors and textures. Lowes has Elmer's white glue in gallons.

Marc,

I just found your topic after we massaged back and forth.  The guys have lots of great suggestions.  I put a temporary 4x8 layout in our married daughter's old room a year and a half ago, anticipating our other daughter marrying and moving out giving me her old room for a permanent layout.  That one will be sceniced very detailed, Woodland Scenics and Seninic Express being prime sources.  For the temporary layout, I went with the green indoor outdoor carpet for the first time in over 45 years. It has worked well, and I have not fastened the Fastrack down as Ace suggested.  I move stuff around.  I agree with the suggested YouTube videos!  They will save you some trial and error.  Then just have at it

Woodwork is up! Mark, I would be interested to see some pictures of your layout with the outdoor grasslike carpet. I think that is going to be my strategy for this layout and I would like to see some examples. 

-Marc

Marc,

It looks good!  Here are some photos.  To show the versatility, I even have one reconfigured in my Christmas motif.  I just took an afternoon to remove buildings, slipped the whit cover on and got out my wife's Christmas buildings.  Now it is being reconfigured again.  Kind of why I call it Temporary Central Railroad.  After the wedding on Sept 10, I will be building a permanent layout in daughter's  to be vacated room.

Looks good Mark! Where did you purchase the carpet? There is a lowes and a Home Depot near me that I could check out. I haven't had the best luck with quality at either location.

Marc

I forget if it was Lowes or Home Depot.  They are side by side in Butler, and sometimes I forget which I was at.  It isn't the best quality, but it works for this and it was inexpensive.

I made lots of progress over the weekend and thought I'd share. Carpet has been laid and track wiring is nearly complete. I purchased it at lowes and used the felt like carpet rather than the "fake grass." I can run trains but still am working out the kinks. Lots of accessories to wire and I've added an AIU to my DCS. I still have not set it up but am looking forward to it. Once I get everything finalized, I will include a final actual track plan. I have had to make a few changes here and there as I have built.

It all fits!  Looks great, Marc!