Flickering lights in passenger cars

This is a WIDELY discussed topic.  For incandescent lights, the capacitor would be HUGE to have a good effect, and you would also have to add a rectifier to convert the track voltage to DC, you can't charge the capacitor with AC.

A MUCH better alternative is to convert to LED lighting, that gives you much more even lighting and it's totally flicker-free as well.  This was a big enough issue that I created a passenger car LED lighting kit, it's sold through Henning's Trains.

 Passenger Car LED Lighting Kit

I also have just the LED lighting regulators for folks that don't mind soldering, you can cut the price of lighting the cars in half.  You just add the LED strips cut to length and a little wire.

 LED Lighting Regulator

Thanks. That answers my question!

You can, if you're so inclined, roll your own LED lighting control for even less money, you can get it down to around $2-3 a car to light them.  Just a bit more soldering.  Here's the actual circuit that is used in my LED lighting modules sold on Henning's site.  You can buy all the parts for a couple of bucks, and a reel of LED strip costs around $5 for five meters, enough to do 10-15 passenger cars.

Or if your passenger car trains stay pretty much coupled for life, just run a single flexible hot wire from one car to the next. A small plug/socket combination can be installed if you plan to re-arrange the order of the cars.  

Why do only some cars flicker in a set of cars if they are all virtually the same?

Phase of the moon.   Or dirty/loose pickups and/or dirty wheels.

I have been using Gunnerjohn's "Roll Your Own" LED lighting circuit and it looks like this when mashed together. I do not use an adjustable resistor. Instead, I tweak R1 to get the brightness I prefer.  After building many of these circuits, I have been able to get them to a smaller volume, but nowhere as neat as Gunnerjohn's module. Thanks Gunnerjohn! Your circuit works very well in my Rail King 13" passenger cars.

Looks like everything but the intensity adjustment pot.

where can I get the led strips if I just want to buy the lighting regulators. I'm not at all prepared to buy the individual components to build regulators myself.

I get them in a number of places.  You can find the 12V strips almost anywhere, the 5V strips are a bit harder to find, but they're available.  Here are a couple of examples, lots more if you look.

5V 5 Meter LED Strip at AliExpress

12V 5 Meter LED Strip at AliExpress

I converted all 11 MTH heavy passenger cars to LED strips and modified DC buck converters to accept AC input voltage.  All parts purchased on Ebay and for less than 30 bucks.  Basically the dc to dc buck converters are missing the choke and full wave rectifier which I added, for the most part match the schematic that John posted above.  glued the strips on the roof and hid the converter and no more flicker plus I can adjust the brightness.  The 12volt strips start illuminating around 7-8 volts so you don't even need the full 12 volts to get a good brightness.

Many here, including myself, use 3528 warm white LED strip lights purchased in 5M lengths. 

For installations in my PW LIONEL 15" aluminum cars, I used LM2596 ac/dc buck converters purchased on eBay for ~$2.50 each and added the 22uh choke per GRJ's recommendation.

For my current projects 15" aluminum pax cars which have full interiors, I'm using GRJ's modules--they're much smaller than the LM2596 modules.

@O Gauge Guy posted:

...I thought the obvious solution might be to install a capacitor inside the car that could provide power to the lights when the pickup rollers momentary don’t make a connection. Has anyone tried this? If so, what value capacitor is recommended?

Out of curiosity, has anyone tried this?  That is, some type of capacitor concoction for incandescent lights.

No question the components might be large, and if going thru the hassles of re-wiring a car anyway then it's only logical to convert to LEDs.  Etc. Etc.  OK, I get that.

But OGR being a discussion forum for the exchange of ideas, I'm curious if there's interest in actually trying this!  That is, in round numbers LEDs as used in passenger cars are about 10 times more efficient than bulbs.  So in round numbers let's just say you need a capacitor (energy storage device) that is 10 times larger than whatever capacitor is used for the LED approach.

If you look at pictures of the capacitors used in the LED conversion projects, I'd think you can fit a capacitor 10 times that size in some cars...especially if silhouette or frosted window styles where there's no interior detail to see.

Again, just curious if anyone has tried it?  There's a hard to describe "warmth" in the color of incandescent bulbs that "warm" white LEDs just can't quite duplicate - in my opinion of course.

@stan2004 posted:

Out of curiosity, has anyone tried this? That is, some type of capacitor concoction for incandescent lights.

The capacitor would be huge in order to reap the same benefits, the heat of the incandescent lights would still be there, and you wouldn't have the even lighting that you get with the strips with 20+ light emitting sources.

So, the obvious question is, why in the world would you want to?  And the answer is no, I haven't tried it, it truthfully didn't really occur to me to seriously consider it.

@stan2004 posted:

There's a hard to describe "warmth" in the color of incandescent bulbs that "warm" white LEDs just can't quite duplicate - in my opinion of course.

You just don't shop in the right places.  I've found plenty of LED's that mimic the color temperature of incandescent but give you all the benefits of LED lighting.

@stan2004 posted:

Out of curiosity, has anyone tried this? That is, some type of capacitor concoction for incandescent lights.

No question the components might be large, and if going thru the hassles of re-wiring a car anyway then it's only logical to convert to LEDs.  Etc. Etc.  OK, I get that.

But OGR being a discussion forum for the exchange of ideas, I'm curious if there's interest in actually trying this!  That is, in round numbers LEDs as used in passenger cars are about 10 times more efficient than bulbs.  So in round numbers let's just say you need a capacitor (energy storage device) that is 10 times larger than whatever capacitor is used for the LED approach.

If you look at pictures of the capacitors used in the LED conversion projects, I'd think you can fit a capacitor 10 times that size in some cars...especially if silhouette or frosted window styles where there's no interior detail to see.

Again, just curious if anyone has tried it?  There's a hard to describe "warmth" in the color of incandescent bulbs that "warm" white LEDs just can't quite duplicate - in my opinion of course.

Stan, I'm up for this discussion, I think.  Let's say hypothetically that someone wanted to keep all original parts in their frosted window passenger cars and was also interested in adding some inexpensive minimal circuitry non-destructively in order to minimize flickering roughly 50% or so (requiring a smaller cap than for completely eliminating flicker).  Avoiding rapid capacitor discharge during derailments would also require some additional components (as you say concoction ).

I guess one of the first questions to answer would be, what is the combined wattage of the car's bulbs that should be planned for?  Secondly, should the additional circuitry be designed so that there is near Zero back current flow to the tracks to avoid interfering with stopping the train quickly?

GRJ's LED module and strips have worked well insofar as / no flicker /  minimal module size /  ease of installation  /  long life of LEDs /  level of light intensity easily adjustable which by the way can get the overly white look of the LEDs down to a more acceptable look.  🙄  ........just seems to keep it simple and straight forward .👍

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

This is a WIDELY discussed topic.  For incandescent lights, the capacitor would be HUGE to have a good effect, and you would also have to add a rectifier to convert the track voltage to DC, you can't charge the capacitor with AC.

A MUCH better alternative is to convert to LED lighting, that gives you much more even lighting and it's totally flicker-free as well.  This was a big enough issue that I created a passenger car LED lighting kit, it's sold through Henning's Trains.

Passenger Car LED Lighting Kit

I also have just the LED lighting regulators for folks that don't mind soldering, you can cut the price of lighting the cars in half.  You just add the LED strips cut to length and a little wire.

LED Lighting Regulator

I need at least 5 more sets of these and they are out of stock.  John, when will you have more available?

I have plenty of the regulators available, so I'll have to restock them.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I have plenty of the regulators available, so I'll have to restock them.

Thanks.  Would this be soon? I just ordered Hennings last Two packages of two and need 5 more sets of two.

Yep, I'll get them up there this week.  They didn't tell me they were out.

Are you using the modules or buying the full passenger lighting kit?  I see they have the modules in stock, just not the full kits.

I’ll email them so they can hold the order until you get them to the store that way it  can all ship together.  Also, just a thought about the leads to the LED strip:  is it possible to not attach the white plug to the leads so the wires can be trimmed to fit and then the plug can be installed. I’ve found in the six cars I’ve done so far, the wires are too long and I’m unsure about how to remove and reattach the white plug.  Thanks

In order to attach the white connector, you need new crimp contacts and a crimp tool.  The way to trim them would be to unsolder them from the strip and cut the wire to the correct length and then solder them to the LED strip again.

FWIW, this is why I recommend the bare modules and buying the reel of LED's for installation.  You can make a neater installation if you use wire the length you need.  Obviously, when I create a generic kit, I have to do with something that is a "one size fits all", and we all know that's never perfect.

I see your point.  I’ll shorten the wires my self.  I’ve been using heat shrink tubes instead of the white connectors.  I’ve found that the wires fit neatly into gap between the interior and the shell.

I've fitted LED lighting to a set of extruded aluminium carriages, and a 24xx set and in both cases, it works very well. They still have the original lighting and wiring, the original pickup wires from the trucks were disconnected and rolled up inside, or discarded in the case of the 24xx set as they were becoming brittle.

I have some Lionel Madisons and they are less successful, the cheap plastic trucks and poorly made rollers are still a problem. More work needed there. Steel wheels and axles in cast trucks are obviously worth having.

@RixTrack posted:

I see your point.  I’ll shorten the wires my self.  I’ve been using heat shrink tubes instead of the white connectors.  I’ve found that the wires fit neatly into gap between the interior and the shell.

I obviously never use my full kit for my upgrades, I custom cut and fit the wires for the best job.  The only reason the full kit exists was I kept getting requests for a solderless version.  We sell a lot of kits, so obviously there is a demand for solderless installs.

What is missing from this conversation/topic is that LEDs give more Lumens (light output) per Watt (volts * amps). LEDs must be run off of DC, and should be thought of as running off of a fixed voltage, usually solved by putting a resistor in series with them.  LEDs == smaller capacitor needed to keep lit going over dead spots.

I have only converted one passenger car as a test; an MTH full length vista dome. I used an AC-to-DC buck converter that used to be sold on eBay, but now can only be found on AliExpress (aka only from China). It has a bridge rectifier in front, an electrolytic cap to store energy, and a voltage adjust pot. I used 12V LED strips.

12V strips are more common than 5V strips. Since 5 < 12, you get a bit more time before the capacitor discharges, but honestly just run with the 12V, you can get better color choices and pricing; maybe in the future that will change.

The advantage to GRJ's setup is it has an inductor aka choke aka coil to help with DCS, of which I do not use. It also uses a linear voltage regulator, so less parts. In general, less parts == more reliability. And the LED strip is picked out for you.

Many ways to do this.