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Four operational steam engines at Steam Town?

superwarp1superwarp1OGR Forum Member

I really wish I could find a link to this but the Lackawanna and Wyoming Valley railway historical Society was passing out a new article from the Times-Tribune(Guessing a Scranton paper) at the Big E train show; about the new Steam Town superintendent a Ms Conway goal of having three to four operational steam engines.

 

Now that switcher #26 is almost complete, the priority will be on B&M 3713 with a plan operational date of 2017.  Ms. Conway thinks it possible, and the boys with the LWVRHS thinks it's possible.  After 3713 two more engines could be restored.  According to the news article, the most likely candidates are being evaluated.  Which ones, sorry to say the Society only has rumors and I didn't write them down.

 

Lofty goals, yes, will it happen, wishing but I won't hold my breath.  Maybe like the UP Steam program things in Scranton are turning around.

 

http://project3713.com/wp/

 

Last edited by superwarp1
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KOOLjock1KOOLjock1OGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBERDIGITAL SUBSCRIBER

From the 3713 web-site:

 

Ms. Conway is a big supporter of working with partners to accomplish the park mission. “We need more operating steam locomotives to fulϐill our mission; to keep the operation going. 3713 is a key part of the strategic plan we are developing. Along with Baldwin 26, which will handle yard tasks and tours, we need several more powerful engines in order to reach the surrounding communities.” The strategic plan is considering other locomotives to restore and rebuild. “Ideally, we need 4 operating steam locomotives to complete the park’s mission. 3713 is a top priority,” added Ms. Conway. Deciding which other locomotives are to steam up has not yet happened. Several factors go into determining what ϐits the park’s needs along with the visitors desires.

 

Jon  

Mike CTMike CTOGR Forum Member DIGITAL SUBSCRIBER
Originally Posted by Hot Water:

So just how and were will the U.S. Parks Service get all the money required to accomplish this?

Very good question.

 

As with most parks (national), they do a lot with Volunteer service, but it would be difficult to get skilled technicians in a volunteer environment.  It works it's way out as lost time. The 0-6-0, Baldwin #26, has been in progress longer than I've been making trips to Steamtown. The Pennsylvania K4 never did make it to steam. The 3713 project did have some funding, whether there is enough funding or not is probably questionable.

 

I did fill-out a volunteer form at the desk, one trip there, never did get a response back, which I found to be somewhat rude. You would think a response one way or another would be appropriate. 

 

Many say that the Park Service, nation-wide could not function without the volunteer service factor. Who knows. 

 Mike CT  

Both the Canadian Pacific 2317 and the Canadian National 3254 Mikado would require complete tear down and rebuild to be re-certified.  There are a lot of museum pieces there, I'm not sure which would be in line for live operation.  Probably the one's, (2), that could mustard the most free support, with out any government funding. That's an IMO.    

Last edited by Mike CT
HW Hot WaterOGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBER

Volunteers are all well and good, Mike but, that sort of work force can be problematic when restoring/rebuilding/overhauling steam locomotives, which fall under FRA regulations. Top quality, and EXPERIENCED, crafts such as Machinists, Boilermakers, and Welders don't tend to "volunteer" at such an organization as a National Park. Private "non profit organizations" such as the SP 4449, AT&SF 2926, SP&S 700, etc. appear to be getting top quality, experienced volunteers. 

HW Hot WaterOGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBER
Originally Posted by CarGuyZM10:
Originally Posted by superwarp1:

That was one of the mentioned plus maybe the Reading northern

Reading and Northern? Do you mean 1098? I mean, 2102 won't fit on the turntable and I can't see 425 leaving for a long period of time.

Note that he stated "Reading northern", which is T-1 #2124, while "Reading and Northern" is the railroad where that Pacific #425 operates. Personally, I really don't see Reading T-1 #2124 being restored, however NKP #759 would be a much better candidate.

Mike CTMike CTOGR Forum Member DIGITAL SUBSCRIBER

There was a relatively extensive upgrade of the Canadian National 3254 Mikado a few years ago to keep it running until something else was available.  I believe a lot of new boiler tubes, which would be part of a more extensive overhaul.  Probably means little or nothing on a complete upgrade.  That which is a few years old, would probably be scrapped and re-done again.  IMO.

Both 3254 and 2317 have seen extensive maintenance over their use period.  You would think some of replaced/upgraded/remanufactured parts would play into the cost of becoming live steam again v.s. from rust to steam, which would be the case of most of the museum pieces at Steamtown.  IMO.  

 

Last edited by Mike CT
HW Hot WaterOGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBER
Originally Posted by Mike CT:

There was a relatively extensive upgrade of the Canadian National 3254 Mikado a few years ago to keep it running until something else was available.  I believe a lot of new boiler tubes, which would be part of a more extensive overhaul.  Probably means little or nothing on a complete upgrade.  That which is a few years old, would probably be scrapped and re-done again.  IMO

 

It doesn't really matter to the FRA what has previously been done to a steam locomotive boiler. When it is due for the 1472 day/15 year mandated inspection, the entire exterior AND interior of the boiler MUST be exposed, ultra-sonic tested, and visually inspected. After that is completed, the Federal Form 4 must be recalculated and submitted to the FRA. 

Mike CTMike CTOGR Forum Member DIGITAL SUBSCRIBER
Originally Posted by Hot Water:
Originally Posted by Mike CT:

There was a relatively extensive upgrade of the Canadian National 3254 Mikado a few years ago to keep it running until something else was available.  I believe a lot of new boiler tubes, which would be part of a more extensive overhaul.  Probably means little or nothing on a complete upgrade.  That which is a few years old, would probably be scrapped and re-done again.  IMO

 

It doesn't really matter to the FRA what has previously been done to a steam locomotive boiler. When it is due for the 1472 day/15 year mandated inspection, the entire exterior AND interior of the boiler MUST be exposed, ultra-sonic tested, and visually inspected. After that is completed, the Federal Form 4 must be recalculated and submitted to the FRA. 

I agree, Things like air pumps, axles, tires, rod linkage, etc. not related to the boiler rebuild have been addressed on these two locomotives, and are apparently in relatively good operating conditions.  Total cost of rust to steam would involve a lot more than just the boiler.  IMO.  The detailed website on the Pennsy K4 showed all kinds of nuts and bolts remanufacturing/replacement related to the overall locomotive and tender.  Amazing information, which gave you a real good idea why we don't do this any more.

 Mike  

When money was good, at Steamtown and other National Parks, during the Stimulus period, aprox., 2008 through 2011. I noted this stainless steel tender for 3254.

 You would think this would be factored into a decision on the (3rd) and (4th) live steam locomotives.   IMO.    Mike CT

Last edited by Mike CT
superwarp1superwarp1OGR Forum Member
Originally Posted by Hot Water:
Originally Posted by CarGuyZM10:
Originally Posted by superwarp1:

That was one of the mentioned plus maybe the Reading northern

Reading and Northern? Do you mean 1098? I mean, 2102 won't fit on the turntable and I can't see 425 leaving for a long period of time.

Note that he stated "Reading northern", which is T-1 #2124, while "Reading and Northern" is the railroad where that Pacific #425 operates. Personally, I really don't see Reading T-1 #2124 being restored, however NKP #759 would be a much better candidate.

don't know, loud train show, lots of noise,  thought I heard Reading.  That's all I can give you. 

HW Hot WaterOGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBER
Originally Posted by rail:

I was just at Steamtown on the 19th, and our guide mentioned issues with at least one boiler tube on the CN loco, so it is going to get an inspection.

The CP as mentioned is due for full inspection.

Don 

Apparently your "guide" is not knowledgable of FRA rules, as both of those Canadian locomotives are due their federally mandated 15 year inspection. 

CarGuyZM10CarGuyZM10OGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBERDIGITAL SUBSCRIBERMEMORIAL SUPPORTER
Originally Posted by superwarp1:
Originally Posted by Hot Water:
Originally Posted by CarGuyZM10:
Originally Posted by superwarp1:

That was one of the mentioned plus maybe the Reading northern

Reading and Northern? Do you mean 1098? I mean, 2102 won't fit on the turntable and I can't see 425 leaving for a long period of time.

Note that he stated "Reading northern", which is T-1 #2124, while "Reading and Northern" is the railroad where that Pacific #425 operates. Personally, I really don't see Reading T-1 #2124 being restored, however NKP #759 would be a much better candidate.

don't know, loud train show, lots of noise,  thought I heard Reading.  That's all I can give you. 

It's possible, but I would be really surprised.

 

As for the people bringing up 3254, I know there was a rumor about using her good parts to help restore 3377 because of damage to 3254 (I believe frame damage from an accident, but I don't know this first hand).

CNJ 3676CNJ 3676OGR Forum Member

The last time I visited Steamtown some years back, I asked a staff member specifically about the 759 as my early mainline steam experiences were trips run by Ross Rowland's High Iron Company and the 759 was one of the locomotives used by HICO. He told me its relatively good condition would make the 759 a logical candidate for rebuilding after the 3713. How much weight that carries, I don't know but I figured I would share it here since the topic of Steamtown locomotives being rebuilt came up.

 

Bob     

Mike CTMike CTOGR Forum Member DIGITAL SUBSCRIBER
Originally Posted by Hot Water:
Originally Posted by SJC:

I seem to remember another issue with the Canadian Pacific loco (#2317 I believe) were the tires/flanges being thin and it was not allowed to operate outside of the museum complex?

I don't know but, that would surely be an FRA violation.

I would have to look for the pictures, there was a pile of tires there and I believe at least two were replaced a few years ago if not all of the driver tires.  I believe there was also some tire replacement done on 3254   (8) tires in the picture, most likely for 3254  2006 picture.

Last edited by Mike CT
ReadingFanReadingFanOGR Forum Member

As for the people bringing up 3254, I know there was a rumor about using her good parts to help restore 3377 because of damage to 3254 (I believe frame damage from an accident, but I don't know this first hand).

I heard that the locomotive with frame damage is CP Pacific 2317. She "hunts" to one side.

 

Years ago I saw 3254 under a roof at the Ashland [PA] Motel. A live steamer owned the motel. He purchased her from the CN. The Reading delivered her. Then she went to the Gettysburg Railroad. Steamtown traded F. Nelson Blount's favorite, CP 127, and some spare parts for her.

 

Her stainless steel tender is something. I never saw a coal extension like that.

 

I think that No. 90 at Strasburg has a stainless steel tender with simulated rivets. Anyone know for certain?

FM Former Member

Just a clarification.  CN 3254 had not run out her 15 year clock when last operated.  However, there were a number of heavy (read costly) repair items required to keep the locomotive in service.  The engine, when parked in 2012, had two or three years of time left.  However, they elected not to perform the repairs on account of the short time remaining.

 

The 2317 did run out of time.  She had frame issues from a wreck on the CP, but not enough to put the engine out of service.  For whatever reason, the park elected not to put new tires on the engine so she could continue on the mainline.  The tires were not condemnable, but were headed in that direction.  So they just "conserved" her and kept operations in the yard for demonstration.

 

I've been gone from there for over 15 years, seems like a million years.

Last edited by Former Member
A ArcticreviveOGR Forum Member

First, I want to point out that the Steamtown NPS website says that B&M #3713 will be replacing CN #3254 as the site's mainline locomotive power. Whether that means indefinately or for the time being I'm not sure.

Reasons the NKP #759 and Reading #2124 probably won't be restored to operation and why R&N #425 would not go on loan to Steamtown:

Reading T-1 (Northern) #2124
1. The Reading T-1 #2102 is already being restored. Steamtown wouldn't benefit as much from having the exact engine another group is already restoring.
2. There are already many 'Northern' type locomotives in operation.
3. It would not fit on the Steamtown turntable.
4. It would not fit in the Steamtown roundhouse (if it does there would be almost no room for error in parking it).

NKP Berkshire #759
1. There is already an NKP Berkshire (#765) in operation. Steamtown wouldn't benefit as much from having the exact engine another group is already operating.
2. It doesn't fit on the Steamtown turntable unless the gates stopping people from falling in the TT pit are removed.
3. Even though the engine is in really good shape the logistics of returning the #759 to operation at Steamtown will prevent it from happening.
3a. I could see Steamtown trading the #759 to someone for a locomotive to restore to opeating condition if they could "get over" the historical value of the engine (it's life with the HICO and pulling the American Freedom Train). Right now its hard to appreciate the size of the engine when it just sits in the roundhouse. But, it's in such good condition they could never put it outside (and rightly so). I am one of the last people who would want to see this engine leave steamtown but at the same time I do consider this a possibility.

Reading and Northern #425
1. The Steamtown NPS website says after the BLW #26 0-6-0 switcher is up and running the next two locomotives to be restored to operation will be B&M #3713 and CP #2317 both of which are 4-6-2 Pacific type locomotives; just like #425. Steamtown probably wouldn't want three Pacifics and an 0-6-0 as part of their locomotive roster. They would much rather have a more varied roster.
2. R&N would probably like to have their locomotive available for their own use.


My best 3 guesses for the future of steamtown in terms of a "4th locomotive":

1. Steamtown restores a locomotive they currently own.
    - Here is a list of possible locomotive choices for restoration to operation (all owned by Steamtown) and their     tractive efforts (#3713 and #3254 listed for comparison)
                                                     B&M #3713 (4-6-2 Pacific) - Tractive Effort: 40,900 lbf
                                                       CN #3254 (2-8-2 Mikado) - Tractive Effort: 53,115 lbf
        a. Grand Trunk and Western #6039 (4-8-2 Mountain) - Tractive Effort: 49,590 lbf
        b. Illinois Central #790 (2-8-0 Consolidation)       -         Tractive Effort: 42,000 lbf
        c. Maine Central #519 (2-8-0 Consolidation)        -         Tractive Effort: 37,000 lbf
        d. Rahway Valley #15 (2-8-0 Consolidation)         -          Tractive Effort: 35,360 lbf

    - I think the one with the highest chance of restoration are GT&W #6039. It has the tractive effort to pull the 7     car trains up the Pocono main. I am fairly certain that it will fit on the TT but I'm not 100% sure. I know if it         does it's pretty close. The Vanderbilt tender makes it unique, something Steamtown can benefit from. The           only problem (other than the possible TT issue) I have read is that there may be some cylinder scarring which     would be a big problem to overcome in restoration.

2. Something happens with NKP #759

    - Either they sell/trade it for another locomotive or they restore #759 themselves.

3. Steamtown restores CN #3254 with all of her flaws no matter how long it takes or how hard it will be.

 

 

Closing Notes: I just spent way to much time on this to post to something that's been dead for a year.

p51p51OGR Forum Member
Arcticrevive posted:

 

NKP Berkshire #759

 3a. I could see Steamtown trading the #759 to someone for a locomotive to restore to opeating condition if they could "get over" the historical value of the engine (it's life with the HICO and pulling the American Freedom Train).

FYI, neither 759 nor any other Berk ever pulled the Freedom Train...

Ross Rowland's original concept for the AFT was to have all the locos pulling it coming from the same class locomotives (originally, Van Swearingen Berks), but that never came to pass.

T Tony_VOGR Forum Member DIGITAL SUBSCRIBER
Arcticrevive posted:

First, I want to point out that the Steamtown NPS website says that B&M #3713 will be replacing CN #3254 as the site's mainline locomotive power. Whether that means indefinately or for the time being I'm not sure.

Reasons the NKP #759 and Reading #2124 probably won't be restored to operation and why R&N #425 would not go on loan to Steamtown:

Reading T-1 (Northern) #2124
1. The Reading T-1 #2102 is already being restored. Steamtown wouldn't benefit as much from having the exact engine another group is already restoring.
2. There are already many 'Northern' type locomotives in operation.
3. It would not fit on the Steamtown turntable.
4. It would not fit in the Steamtown roundhouse (if it does there would be almost no room for error in parking it).

NKP Berkshire #759
1. There is already an NKP Berkshire (#765) in operation. Steamtown wouldn't benefit as much from having the exact engine another group is already operating.
2. It doesn't fit on the Steamtown turntable unless the gates stopping people from falling in the TT pit are removed.
3. Even though the engine is in really good shape the logistics of returning the #759 to operation at Steamtown will prevent it from happening.
3a. I could see Steamtown trading the #759 to someone for a locomotive to restore to opeating condition if they could "get over" the historical value of the engine (it's life with the HICO and pulling the American Freedom Train). Right now its hard to appreciate the size of the engine when it just sits in the roundhouse. But, it's in such good condition they could never put it outside (and rightly so). I am one of the last people who would want to see this engine leave steamtown but at the same time I do consider this a possibility.

Reading and Northern #425
1. The Steamtown NPS website says after the BLW #26 0-6-0 switcher is up and running the next two locomotives to be restored to operation will be B&M #3713 and CP #2317 both of which are 4-6-2 Pacific type locomotives; just like #425. Steamtown probably wouldn't want three Pacifics and an 0-6-0 as part of their locomotive roster. They would much rather have a more varied roster.
2. R&N would probably like to have their locomotive available for their own use.


My best 3 guesses for the future of steamtown in terms of a "4th locomotive":

1. Steamtown restores a locomotive they currently own.
    - Here is a list of possible locomotive choices for restoration to operation (all owned by Steamtown) and their     tractive efforts (#3713 and #3254 listed for comparison)
                                                     B&M #3713 (4-6-2 Pacific) - Tractive Effort: 40,900 lbf
                                                       CN #3254 (2-8-2 Mikado) - Tractive Effort: 53,115 lbf
        a. Grand Trunk and Western #6039 (4-8-2 Mountain) - Tractive Effort: 49,590 lbf
        b. Illinois Central #790 (2-8-0 Consolidation)       -         Tractive Effort: 42,000 lbf
        c. Maine Central #519 (2-8-0 Consolidation)        -         Tractive Effort: 37,000 lbf
        d. Rahway Valley #15 (2-8-0 Consolidation)         -          Tractive Effort: 35,360 lbf

    - I think the one with the highest chance of restoration are GT&W #6039. It has the tractive effort to pull the 7     car trains up the Pocono main. I am fairly certain that it will fit on the TT but I'm not 100% sure. I know if it         does it's pretty close. The Vanderbilt tender makes it unique, something Steamtown can benefit from. The           only problem (other than the possible TT issue) I have read is that there may be some cylinder scarring which     would be a big problem to overcome in restoration.

2. Something happens with NKP #759

    - Either they sell/trade it for another locomotive or they restore #759 themselves.

3. Steamtown restores CN #3254 with all of her flaws no matter how long it takes or how hard it will be.

 

 

Closing Notes: I just spent way to much time on this to post to something that's been dead for a year.

Regarding your closing note:  It was a good read so thanks for posting.  I also didn't see the original post.

I would really like to see the NP Berk or Reading T-1 restored but I agree with your comments.  I live within 10 minutes of 2 operational Steam engines ("New Hope and Ivy Land" and "Black River and Western") and they both run 2-8-0 Consolidations.  They're different, one was made by ALCO and the other Baldwin I believe, but similar enough.  I would be nicer if one was different.  But having 2 operational steam engines close enough to hear the whistles is a high class problem IMHO.  

Tony

superwarp1superwarp1OGR Forum Member

3713 is going to get restored, she's half way done now.  Only need money and manpower.  My only question about 3713 which has large drivers 70" I think and  plans are to restore the booster.  Even with a booster which I thought are only used for starting a engine.  How would 3713 handle the mountains to Moscow or the like?

A ArcticreviveOGR Forum Member

The booster was only for starting off as far as I know. She should handle it fine. #3713 was originally designed to pull 14 car passenger trains at 70mph so I would assume she would do fine, her tractive effort is only about 6,000 lbf less than CP #2317 and she seemed to be okay up up the Pocono main.

 

As for BLW #26, she may be ready to run, but her first excursion is scheduled for April. Probably needs time to get recertified for passenger service.

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