Even his little switcher derails by climbing up on the turnout (as do nearly all lightweight cars or passenger cars).
I can show you the setup. It follows recommendations (short piece of track between the two turnouts). It never gets that far. Derails on first turnout. Often from either direction. Sometimes the center rollers lift the wheels. The only thing that goes through the nine of these flawlessly is my old heavy 2026.
A five year old simply cannot deal with this.
John
I can certainly appreciate the frustration you are having. However, it might be worth clarifying that not all Gargraves turnouts are problematic. I have used 072 and larger turnouts on my first permanent O layout and also on my current modular one for at least 15 years and never had derailment issues.
While the 042 turnouts may not be compatible with all trains, the larger ones don't appear to have the same issue.
@Craftech thank you for sharing your issue - I have a couple of 042 Gargraves I haven't used yet - the experience and tips from your question are helping me plan ahead and learn about wheel sets and other valuable information that I only get on this forum. This OGRR forum is priceless!
Sorry for the problems you are having! Your goal wasn't to help me but you did.
Another thought on why you are having issues might be the the cross-track configuration of the turnouts back-to-back? Below is a layout that one of my clubs used to run for the public and it utilized Gargraves 042 switches.
@Craftech posted:I started making a 4 x 8 layout for my grandson months ago based upon this thread https://ogrforum.com/...five-year-old?page=1
The original layout called for an 036 Fastrack outer loop, an 031 Fastrack inner loop and manual Fastrack turnouts.
I kept the 036 Fastrack outer loop from the design, but Foolishly decided that since the layout had to be stored vertically each day behind a dresser the flags on manual Fastrack turnouts would break off so I went with Gargraves manual 042 and Gargraves flex track track for the inner loop.
Now that it is roughly finished no matter how I level them my grandson's 0-8-0 Lion Chief derails as do many other things like passenger cars. They literally climb up and out of the turnout derailing every time. There is a noticeable bump when it happens. Maybe the 0-8-0 won't do a Gargraves 042 curve. Maybe they aren't designed for passenger cars.
As a last resort I ordered .030 x .188 styrene strips because someone on the forum once recommended them. Are they just glued on?
https://ogrforum.com/...rgrave-switches-pose
With nine Gargraves turnouts this layout for my grandson has cost a bloody fortune and is nowhere near ready to give him. He will be getting two new engines with nothing to run them on tomorrow morning. Pretty frustrating.
I should have just stuck with all Fastrack as per the original design. I may end up ripping the entire layout apart and doing that. Even the wiring is unnecessarily complicated since none of the rails are tied together and the turnouts the same. Plastic frogs that don't conduct facing each other necessitating jumpers and creating a space where they join the Gargraves track.
John
John: SCARM track plans can look great on the screen. But implementing them does not always go easy. And I guess I don't understand your reasoning for using GarGraves track on a 4 x 8 layout for a 5-year-old.
My small layout consists of two 4 x 8 tables and one 4 x 6 table joined together, forming a backward "J." This layout uses all Fastrack 036 curves, with just one 036 left-hand turnout for a spur. This layout has been up and running for 10 years this month with never a track or switch issue. All kinds of locomotives and cars have run through the switch at low and high speeds with never a derailment.
For your grandson, Fastrack would do the job. It snaps together tight, is durable, and seems to stay clean a long time. Then when he gets older and if he's still interested, expand the layout and replace the Fastrack with your Gargraves and new Ross switches, if you decide to change the track.
@GG1 4877 posted:Another thought on why you are having issues might be the the cross-track configuration of the turnouts back-to-back? Below is a layout that one of my clubs used to run for the public and it utilized Gargraves 042 switches.
Those are different. The center section is a solid metal piece. Mine have a couple of tubes that the rollers are supposed to navigate (see above)
John
@Yellowstone Special posted:John: SCARM track plans can look great on the screen. But implementing them does not always go easy. And I guess I don't understand your reasoning for using GarGraves track on a 4 x 8 layout for a 5-year-old.
I chose the Gargraves switches because the layout has to be stored vertically behind a wardrobe cabinet every time he finishes using it and I felt the Fastrack manual flag throws would break off. Gargraves use the Caboose flat throws.
They were supposed to transition to an inner loop of tubular O Gauge track and Gargraves track and I chose all Gargraves. But the choice of switches were the reason for the whole debacle.
John
@Craftech posted:
Please, get your eyeballs down to track level and roll the engine and cars through (slide, if the engine is not a "roller") and watch the wheels to see exactly what is happening when trouble happens. With better observation, you can figure this thing out.
While you are at it, be sure the center rail pickup is not falling into that gap in the center of the switch. You can stuff track pins into the ends of those bent black center rails to fill the gap if needed. If you add pins, be sure they don't touch the wheels as they go by, or you will have a momentary short circuit.
@nickaix posted:Please, get your eyeballs down to track level and roll the engine and cars through (slide, if the engine is not a "roller") and watch the wheels to see exactly what is happening when trouble happens. With better observation, you can figure this thing out.
While you are at it, be sure the center rail pickup is not falling into that gap in the center of the switch. You can stuff track pins into the ends of those bent black center rails to fill the gap if needed. If you add pins, be sure they don't touch the wheels as they go by, or you will have a momentary short circuit.
I took them out. They were making it worse because the roller doesn't drop down. At eye level I had noticed that the spaghetti tubes were raising the roller and thus the wheels (slightly, but enough to thwart the guardrails). I did align the spaghetti tubes after they moved (on every single switch) from merely inserting track pins.
John
I confess that is a new one for me. I only have the older style with the flat plate. I wish I had eyes on them to better understand how the roller is being deflected. But, as you said, at some point you reach a place where you just don't want to have to fiddle with them anymore.
Have you tried calling gargraves? I am sure they would be able to figure what is causing your problem.
@Bill Grafmiller posted:Have you tried calling gargraves? I am sure they would be able to figure what is causing your problem.
Yes. The brothers are very nice about all of it. Mostly they talk about careful alignment and leveling and that they will replace any turnout that doesn't perform well if you bought it from an authorized vendor (which I did). I asked them about the plastic frogs and why they did that, but they weren't sure. They said their father designed them (who has since passed away).
John
I have three GG 042 switches and they have served me well. I now use Fastrack. Perhaps it better to say there may be issues with some of the switches. Mark
Watch the front truck of the switcher jump right over the divergent rails to go straight and the rear truck follow the divergent curve. And it does not "appear" to be the center roller (rails) causing the problem.
John
If the front truck works okay and the back one doesn't, wouldn't it possibly be a problem with the truck(s) as opposed to the track? 🤔
Mark in Oregon
Craftech, Here is a video of one of my GG switches. There is a sticker on the back indicating "JP" inspected the switch on 7/25/00. You will observe there is a metal piece between the closure rails, missing on the photos I observed. Maybe that makes a difference. Mark
Been using Gargraves 042 and 054 for many years with no major problems, also use Gargraves track.
My 2 cents,after many years of solving a couple switch problems.After watching that video on a full 27in screen in high resolution and slow motion is, as the engine enters the switch the weight of the engine is on the engine,the back rail is not helping the truck turn,the front inside rail is making the train turn.{I don't know all the official names of the switch parts so bare with me}When the trucks gets to the closest rail{to the picture} that is supposed to turn it,the weight of the engine is still on the slightly higher track and it jumps over the rail that should be turning it.The back inside rail is not helping that truck turn. When it gets to the back truck the weight of the engine is pushing down and it turns. The first thing I would do as a diagnostic step is replace the rail leading up to the switch with a gargraves. If that didn't work I would regroup and either go with fastrack switches or go with ross track and switches , Ross will make sure it works.I didn't explain that as well as what I'm thinking,but maybe someone else can.Watching that closely and carefully you can see whats happening.
@Transman posted:My 2 cents,after many years of solving a couple switch problems.After watching that video on a full 27in screen in high resolution and slow motion is, as the engine enters the switch the weight of the engine is on the engine,the back rail is not helping the truck turn,the front inside rail is making the train turn.{I don't know all the official names of the switch parts so bare with me}When the trucks gets to the closest rail{to the picture} that is supposed to turn it,the weight of the engine is still on the slightly higher track and it jumps over the rail that should be turning it.The back inside rail is not helping that truck turn. When it gets to the back truck the weight of the engine is pushing down and it turns. The first thing I would do as a diagnostic step is replace the rail leading up to the switch with a gargraves. If that didn't work I would eat it and call ross ,and if you explain to him what you are doing and the track leading up to it,he will make sure it works.I didn't explain that as well as what I'm thinking,but maybe someone else can.Watching that closely and carefully you can see whats happening.
I think you may be right, but it is Gargraves not Ross and if you look above I have discussed this with them. The rail leading up to the switch has to remain. The layout is an outside track of Fastrack and an inside track of Gargraves with 9 Gargraves turnouts. The Fastrack leading up to the switch in the video is a 4 1/2" Fastrack transition track. It has Fastrack pins on one end and O Gauge tubular pin holes on the other. Those are fitted with Gargraves #801 O Gauge to Gargraves mating pins. The Gargraves manual 042 turnout is attached by those.
John
@barrister.2u posted:Craftech, Here is a video of one of my GG switches. There is a sticker on the back indicating "JP" inspected the switch on 7/25/00. You will observe there is a metal piece between the closure rails, missing on the photos I observed. Maybe that makes a difference. Mark
Yes, they definitely changed the center design. Also, pressing down on the truck will make it track better. Like I said earlier, my heavy metal Lionel postwar 2026 has no problem with these switches. Most other things do. Shouldn't be this difficult.
John
I know you have gg not ross Anyway if you look at those mating pins the gg side of them is offset,you want to make sure the offset part is up on all of the gg side of them.
Alot of people on here have alot of switches on their layout with no problem. You have created a unique situation here that you dont want to back out of, Sometimes stuff just doesn't work when you mixey matchy.
I updated my previous post a little also.
@Transman posted:I know you have gg not ross Anyway if you look at those mating pins the gg side of them is offset,you want to make sure the offset part is up on all of them the gg side of them.
Alot of people on here have alot of switches on their layout with no problem. You have created a unique situation here that you dont want to back out of, Sometimes stuff just doesn't work when you mixey matchy.
I updated my previous post a little also.
No actually I have been looking over all Fastrack 4 x 8 layouts. The kid has waited patiently since last spring. Pretty good for a five year old.
I have narrowed it down to 2-3 from the OGRR book I bought 21 Great Track Plans for Compact Layouts.
Some have easements which I like the idea of.
To everyone. Thanks for all the help
John
Joe: I do want to try your suggestion for the heck of it in terms of the "higher" Fastrack transition track idea for the heck of it. I'll lower it or substitute a short section of Gargraves track and try it again while I wait for parts for the new layout.
Follow-up: That did work only to derail somewhere else on the layout.
My previous layout used a handful of GG 0-100 switches and one smaller one. I ran scale and non-scale, steam and diesel, old and new engines over them at track speed, and I never had a problem with any of them, including routing the mainline over the diverging leg.
@G3750 posted:Truth be told, I find it hard to believe they are unaware of the issues with their turnouts. I can remember hearing about issues with their switches (perhaps not this specific issue) when I got back into the hobby in 1995. My turnout choice was Curtis HiRail (now out of business) and then later Ross. Both were stellar choices. I still like the GarGraves track.
George
It used to be at one time last century Ross-Curtis switches. Can YOU tell the difference between the two products?
@palallin posted:My previous layout used a handful of GG 0-100 switches and one smaller one. I ran scale and non-scale, steam and diesel, old and new engines over them at track speed, and I never had a problem with any of them, including routing the mainline over the diverging leg.
I think the title of this thread should be changed, since people like you have repeatedly shared their lack of issues with GarGraves track... maybe something like "GarGraves Turnout Issues" would be more appropriate. Leaving it as is ("huge mistake") is I feel, a bit unfair to the manufacturer. Just my opinion.
Mark in Oregon
PS: as I've stated before, I also am a fan of the GG line of track products. 👍
@Strummer posted:I think the title of this thread should be changed, since people like you have repeatedly shared their lack of issues with GarGraves track... maybe something like "GarGraves Turnout Issues" would be more appropriate. Leaving it as is ("huge mistake") is I feel, a bit unfair to the manufacturer. Just my opinion.
Mark in Oregon
PS: as I've stated before, I also am a fan of the GG line of track products. 👍
Duly noted and done.
John
It looks to me like the front wheel flange caught the point and rode up over it. Maybe the points need to be filed a little bit to make them thin enough that the flange doesn't catch. Your issue is different from mine. My stuff traverses the points okay then get hung up in the frog and derail there. Your not getting to the frog before you have an issue.
@Mike D posted:It looks to me like the front wheel flange caught the point and rode up over it. Maybe the points need to be filed a little bit to make them thin enough that the flange doesn't catch. Your issue is different from mine. My stuff traverses the points okay then get hung up in the frog and derail there. Your not getting to the frog before you have an issue.
Worth looking at Mike.
Thanks,
John
@palallin posted:My previous layout used a handful of GG 0-100 switches and one smaller one. I ran scale and non-scale, steam and diesel, old and new engines over them at track speed, and I never had a problem with any of them, including routing the mainline over the diverging leg.
Those don't have as much curvature. I would think that would help.
John
@gunrunnerjohn posted:
I did see that John
How about a update on what you have found
@Transman posted:How about a update on what you have found
Hi Joe,
I did put an addendum above. Raising the Fastrack section worked on the section in the video. Other sections, not so well. But for a five year old I need more reliability and the kid has waited since last spring for this layout.
I am working on the Cisco RR layout from Ken Hoganson's, 21 Great Track Plans For Compact Layouts. I am just awaiting the 048 switches.
Thanks for the help,
John
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