Got the Z-1000. Have a question please.

Manny, again, simply try Googling MTH Z1000 users manual. After carefully reading a few of the insertions, and, if you then don't understand something feel free to ask here.

Modeltrainsparts,

Sir, I am already free to ask for advice here.  I don't need your permission.   If you don't like it, then please stop reading my posts.  I am sure that you have much better things to do.  If you don't know what those things are, then please use the Search function.

Regards,

Mannyrock 

Modeltrainsparts -

While I understand your point about using Google, I don't understand the rest of your response.  I can't imagine how you know what Mannyrock did or didn't read or Google already and I don't think it matters much.  On a very objective level, he posted an electrical question in the electrical forum.  Other people such as myself that may or may not have this unit may read the responses and contribute and/or learn something.

I have to got to work, I'll dig out my manual later.

Thanks Longhair,

What some folks don't understand is that many people with beginner or intermediate experience with electrical and other matters learn a great deal by just reading the questions posted by others and the answers or solutions given.  I have learned a ton by doing this over the past year.   Often, just reading these about these issues gives rise to quick preventive maintenance (to prevent a catastrophe) in areas where I didn't even know that maintenance was required.  It also educates me regarding electrical components and building products that are out there, that I didn't even know existed.  And, reading different points of view and alternative solutions gives  depth to the knowledge.

In particular, every day, I read the questions and answers posted in the Electrical and Scenery forums.

Folks like Rob and Gunrunner are always quick with a helpful and practical answer, and they seem to enjoy the mentoring process. 

Mannyrock

Mannyrock,

I took a different approach and sought out an owner's manual for the O22 switches.  That document shows only one "power" wire going from the accessory transformer terminal to the switch, with no related separate "common" wire connection.  Now, I'm no electrician, but based on that, I would have to assume that the required "common" connection runs from the switch motor through the track.  Of course, you know "assume" makes an *** out of u and me!!  Maybe some electrical expert can confirm?

Chuck

@Mannyrock posted:

Folks like Rob and Gunrunner are always quick with a helpful and practical answer, and they seem to enjoy the mentoring process.

Mannyrock

Absolutely! GRJ, Rob, and don't forget Stan2004. Those are your go-to guys.

@Mannyrock posted:

Modeltrainsparts,

Sir, I am already free to ask for advice here.  I don't need your permission.   If you don't like it, then please stop reading my posts.  I am sure that you have much better things to do.  If you don't know what those things are, then please use the Search function.

Regards,

Mannyrock

Reading the manual is a really good place to start for reasons that go beyond basic courtesy.  The info comes straight from the folks who designed the transformer.  Sometimes, well-intentioned information from folks on the forum (or elsewhere on the internet) is incorrect.

Many of us rely on the generosity of GRJ and several other people who provide their help for free - the amount of time they spend helping others on this forum is mind boggling to me and I'm grateful for it. I think we owe it to them to do as much investigation on our own before we submit a question.

Those of us who worked (or still do) in IT have an acronym:  RTFM.   

Mannyrock presents a very interesting question.

The MTH manual does not answer his question...if someone thinks it does, please chime in, tell me how it does, and help him out.

I believe he's asking what you'd think is a very basic question:

As I understand it, he has a Z-1000 "brick" transformer and a Controller.  The brick has a fixed 18V AC output cable which plugs into the Controller via a barrel/coax connector.  The Controller has traditional Red/Black terminals.  The Brick has a Fixed Voltage 14V AC output labeled HOT/COM.

As I've attempted to diagram above, I believe his questions boils down to, "Is the black terminal on the Controller output (which powers the track) the same as the COM terminal on the brick?"

I studied the "manual" if you can call it that and it does NOT tell you this.

I know in my mind the answer to his question and was attempting to put it into simple terms but alas I could not do so.    So I simply present some comments about this issue below.  If someone can build on this and/or provide a simple answer without resorting to techno-babble about phasing, inversion, galvanic isolation, common vs ground, blah, blah, blah, then please do.

1. The Lionel CW-80 has two outputs.  One is variable track power, the other is variable Accessory power.  The issue of whether track power common is the same as Accessory common has caused confusion as some versions do, and some versions don't.  A search will reveal these discussions.

2. Apparently there have been some Z-1000 transformers that were wired backwards.  This of course adds to the confusion.  A search will reveal these discussions.

3. There are many Controller electrical designs in existence.  By Controller in this context I mean the throttle which takes fixed AC input (typically 18V AC) and converts it to variable AC output for track power...and maybe it has Whistle and Bell buttons to activate such function in an engine.  By different designs, I mean one could have the AC-in "common" the same as or different than the AC-output "common".  For example, in the case of the MTH TIU, on the variable channels, the Black input terminal is indeed the same as the Black output terminal.  Again, this does NOT have to be the case and there are controllers out there that actually have a common "hot".  This descends into a eyes-glaze-over discussion about triac circuits blah blah blah.

4. MTH has changed the design of their stand-alone Controllers - based on studying pictures on OGR of folks trying to repair them.

If the "simple" answer is to make measurements with a meter to verify this or that, then so be it.  Again, I was attempting to come up with a simple answer but kept stumbling over the trees never seeing the forest.

Reading the manual will not answer the original question.

Five seconds with an ohmmeter would answer the question, you just have to have the Z1000 brick.

10 minutes to crawl under the layout and pull one of the Z-1000 bricks to test, I have the answer. The black connector on my barrel jack adapter is electrically connected to the accessory Com terminal. So to answer the OP's question, if it works as wired, no you don't have to hook anything up to the com terminal, the track is supplying the return path to the brick.

Thanks for all of this great advice.

The Z-1000 I got was in its original packaging, and yes there was a two page "instruction sheet" with it.  It is the same paperwork that Stan has generously posted, and it simply doesn't answer the question, even though it shows how to wire the main hook-ups.   It is so deficient in information, that I thought is was just a "quick start-up" page, and that it was not the real users manual.    Guess I was wrong.

Yes, I thought that this was a very very simple question, because I see so many Z-1000s in pictures that folks post on their layouts.     And, for once, I didn't want to just plunge in and burn something up, as I normally do.

I think that perhaps if I am only running the constant voltage wire to the Lionel 022 switch plug, then the switch track itself provides a a common connection which flows back to the controller, and then somehow back to the power brick.

If the time comes when I want to hook up ordinary accessories to the brick of the  Z-1000, like lights or oil derrick pumps, or anything that doesn't somehow connect to the track, then I had better run a separate common wire from the accessory back to the brick.

Jon, I know your suggestion about getting an Ohm meter is the right answer, but I don't have one and don't have a clue as to how to use one.   It would be somewhat like me advising you to run out and research all federal and state statutes on corporate dissolutions and reorganizations if you had a question about that.  :-)

I got a cheap meter from Harbor Freight a few years ago, which have actually tested out to be quite accurate.   I turned the dials to what I thought was correct to test some voltage in one my house's electrical lines, and it instantly burned out in my hand.    Good thing I only paid $5 for it.  :-)

Thanks for all input, opinions, and ponderings on my question.   

Mannyrock

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Five seconds with an ohmmeter would answer the question, you just have to have the Z1000 brick.

I hear you.  It's just that I cannot count on one hand the number of times I've incorrectly assumed that everyone has an Ohmmeter...much less knows how to use it.  And for the particular problem at hand, I don't think it's common knowledge that measuring the "Ohms" of a transformer secondary might be a value of, say, 0.1 Ohms or so...in other words it looks like a direct connection but it's mis-leading if using an inexpensive hobby-grade meter.

I'd be curious to know if in the marketing/sales departments of train manufacturers whether the manual writers assume that the user has access to, and knows how to use, an Ohmmeter, multimeter or whatever.  Somehow I think not.  I'm old-school and believe there are still guys out there who put a 9V battery on their tongue to see if it still has anything left in the tank...

Manny , IF  you do EVENTUALLY want to run a lot of accessories and you have a good deal of power needs for the track you would do well to have a seperate transformer.

I have the DCS /TIU and remote running with two seperate Z1000 transformers on two seperate track loops ( sometimes four different consists running ) .        For all the ACCESSORIES I use an old Lionel 1033 . 🙂         For all the lighting in the accessories and passenger cars and cabooses on the track , LEDs  and GRJs lighting kits keep power consumption at a minimum.       Never have any breakers popping.

(  GRJ , I always hope that the 9Vs I test have clean terminals . )

Thanks for all advice.

My old flea market 1033 is being replaced by the Z-1000, so I do have an extra transformer.  I was going to toss it, because it appears to be dying, but now I think I will keep it to run any extra accessories.

Mannyrock

@Mannyrock posted:

Thanks for all of this great advice.

The Z-1000 I got was in its original packaging, and yes there was a two page "instruction sheet" with it.  It is the same paperwork that Stan has generously posted, and it simply doesn't answer the question, even though it shows how to wire the main hook-ups.   It is so deficient in information, that I thought is was just a "quick start-up" page, and that it was not the real users manual.    Guess I was wrong.

Yes, I thought that this was a very very simple question, because I see so many Z-1000s in pictures that folks post on their layouts.     And, for once, I didn't want to just plunge in and burn something up, as I normally do.

I think that perhaps if I am only running the constant voltage wire to the Lionel 022 switch plug, then the switch track itself provides a a common connection which flows back to the controller, and then somehow back to the power brick.

If the time comes when I want to hook up ordinary accessories to the brick of the  Z-1000, like lights or oil derrick pumps, or anything that doesn't somehow connect to the track, then I had better run a separate common wire from the accessory back to the brick.

Jon, I know your suggestion about getting an Ohm meter is the right answer, but I don't have one and don't have a clue as to how to use one.   It would be somewhat like me advising you to run out and research all federal and state statutes on corporate dissolutions and reorganizations if you had a question about that.  :-)

I got a cheap meter from Harbor Freight a few years ago, which have actually tested out to be quite accurate.   I turned the dials to what I thought was correct to test some voltage in one my house's electrical lines, and it instantly burned out in my hand.    Good thing I only paid $5 for it.  :-)

Thanks for all input, opinions, and ponderings on my question.   

Mannyrock

IMHO, having a basic Digital Volt Meter ("DVM") is as essential a tool in building, accessorizing, maintaining and operating today's toy train layouts, especially with all the sophisticated electronics employed nowadays, as having a screwdriver or wire stripper.

Good ones are available at many retail and internet sites at relatively inexpensive prices and, perhaps unlike the MTH Z-1000 one, they typically have a excellent instruction manuals - 15 minutes and you're a pro.   

Thanks for the info Richie. The voltmeter that I got from Harbor Freight had a users manual, buts it must have been written in China, because I had real trouble following it.  It was probably fine for Electricians, who actually know something, but no good for an electrically challenged person like me.

This was back before Youtube, though, and I just noticed some very long Youtubes that give information.  So, maybe I'll try again.

Mannyrock

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Five seconds with an ohmmeter...

@Darrell posted:

10 minutes to crawl under the layout and pull one of the Z-1000 bricks to test...

Funny how 5 seconds begets 10 minutes begets etc.

The way I see it, it's one thing to learn how to use or even become an expert on how to make measurements with a Digital Voltmeter per se.  It's another thing to know how to make practical measurements for O-gauge trains.  Sort of like the difference between book work with contrived problems vs. lab work with real-world problems in school.

So above shows making an "Ohms" measurement between the 18V AC plug sleeve to the Controller and the 14V Accessory AC terminals on a Z-1000 brick transformer.  This was using an inexpensive Harbor Freight meter.  Hmm...that's odd.  It's 1.3 Ohms for both measurements; touching the two probes together was 1.1 Ohms.  What can be concluded?  Should I have used a more expensive meter?  Should I have read the manual?   These are rhetorical questions.  The point is I don't think you'll find any instructions, youtube video, or whatever that explains what is going on in this particular situation.

O-gauge trains have, in my opinion, a boat-load of unique electrical configurations that lead to unique measurements.  I seriously doubt you would find a meter manual that provides practical examples based on O-gauge trains.

A few times a year, a topic pops up on OGR about measuring AC track voltage (in Volts)...particularly with throttle controllers (such as the MTH Z-series or the MTH TIU Variable Channels).  The discussion gets technical real quick with techno-speak like pure-sine vs. chopped-sine, or true-RMS vs. averaging (fake) RMS, etc.  Less often, a topic pops up about measuring AC track current (in Amps)...which has another set of issues.  And even less often, a topic pops up about measuring true track power (in Watts).  Transformers are typically marketed with their Watts capability which is curious since none of the train manufacturers provide any useful Wattage specifications for their engines.   But I digress.

I wonder what percentage of O-gauge operators actually own a meter, and what percentage of those find use for it in train applications, and what percentage of the meters have found their way to the bottom of a box in the attic.

Excellent objective analysis Stan.

I wonder if there is a much simpler, dumb-down device, that I could connect to the hot and common rails of a track section, which  would measure A/C voltage only.      This would let me, for instance,  turn the transformer dial up to say 8 volts, and let me see if there is actually 8 volts at the measured track section.

A similar dumb-down device that would measure amps only would be helpful as well.

Yes, I know there are simple math formulas, but some little devices that are like the automobile tire pressure tools with a dial on them would sure be handy.

Perhaps the multiple variables that go into voltage or amp measurements make such simple devices impossible?

To me, the standard Voltmeters are like those big red Swiss Army knives, with a dozen small tools and blades on them.   If all I ever use is the large knife blade, and the can opener tool, then I would much rather two separate simple tools, a large knife and a can opener.  :-)

Mannyrock

Well, I did a fairly simple box to allow me to measure voltage and current on my bench, maybe that's something like you have in mind.

Universal Meter Box for Layout or Workbench

John,  somehow I just knew that you had made one of these tools at some time. 

Looks fantastic.

Perhaps

I would add that "accessory" is a convenient word to throw around, but unfortunately fairly useless from an electrical standpoint.  As we all know, there are many different kinds of accessories with various relationships to track power.  The accessory terminal discussed in this thread, while redundant, does provide a convenient attachment point for a two-conductor wire to something like a light circuit that is not physically close to nor in need of track power.

Also worth noting that the OP in the first picture has wired the brick and the controller in a manner that completely defeats MTH's original intent in separating the two units.  While this may work well for him, the main point of the separate controller is to provide the freedom to move it anywhere away from the brick and keep the brick tucked away.

Longhair,

Yep, your are correct.  I only set the two units next to each other, and attached the short wires, so that I could get a quick clear picture to post.

I haven't actually wired them up yet, and the brick will be tucked away under the table. :-)

Mannyrock

@Mannyrock posted:

My old flea market 1033 is being replaced by the Z-1000, so I do have an extra transformer.  I was going to toss it, because it appears to be dying, but now I think I will keep it to run any extra accessories.

Many times what's dying on old transformers like the 1033 is the variable output wiper or the whistle contacts/rectifier.  That still leaves the fixed voltage stuff intact for accessory use.

From the diagram below, you can see that connecting between B and C will give you 11 volts and connecting between A and C will give you 16 volts.  Both of these options bypass all the whistle, variable voltage, and reverse switch logic.

Thanks for the info John.

I am going to wire it up for 11  volts and mount it under the table, to replace the starter set transformer I have under there, which has no fixed voltage option.

Mannyrock

It's rare, but some of the MTH bricks have the accessory terminals wired backwards, so the "hot" terminal is actually common terminal on the controller.  Easy to check if you know how to phase transformers.