Has Anyone Used This Wire?

Yes. I use various gauges depending on the current. 18 AWG for some lamps and down to 12 or 14 AWG for some track power runs.

Hard to go wrong at 10 cents/foot for #14 two conductor wire!

Mike - In the past I've wired my track using single wires (one red one black) and tied them together with plastic harnesses and never had signal problems.  I did order a 500' spool so I guess I'll try it out and see how it goes.

thanx for your feedback -

Paul

I agree this is a good deal. Check prices for two conductor 14 AWG lamp cord and it will be hard find prices this reasonable. As for the proximity of the conductors compromising the DCS signal, if that turns out to be a problem this cord can be easily separated.

Pete

i might check to make sure this is actually copper wire you are getting.

doesn't really mention composition in the ad or on the manufacturer's website.

Mike, that is perhaps the most cogent explanation of the DCS signal problem I have heard.  Very interesting.  Thank you!

George

Is copper absolutely required? And my second question would be is stranded or solid wire the best to use?

Thanks!

Dave

Mike great explanation of the reflection disturbance.  Back in the 70's before DCS an engineer friend of mine at RCA-IC division told me to put a lighted caboose or passenger car on the track to eliminate any disturbance in the signal I was having.  Took his advice and it works.

Jack 

Using twisted wire for track power when running DCS confuses those reflected signals by disturbing the phase pattern of reflection between the two wires, and this coupling is eliminated.

This same concept of "twisted pair" wires is applies to your CAT 5 computer network cables. CAT 5 cable has 8 wires arranged into 4 twisted pairs.

Also, any time you have a RF signal pushed through a wire, that wire should not be coiled up or the same type of reflected signal interference will occur.

Same goes for your CAT 5 cable.

I've never seen other than copper wire for uses like this.  The photo appears to be copper, and quite frankly, I'd be amazed if it was any other material.

Mike, what prevents you from using that same electric drill and twisting this wire in the same fashion?  In truth, it's probably easier because it's already joined.

This thread is a little confusing as to the science. Forgive me if your posts were accurate but unclear to me.

Twisted pairs are twisted so that one pair of wires doesn't couple to a nearby pair of wires...or pickup noise. That is why pairs were first twisted by Alexander Graham Bell. It is not to prevent one wire within a pair from coupling to the other wire within that single pair or to prevent reflections.

As to the reflections, a pair of wires, twisted or not, is a transmission line. And energy at some frequency that is sent down the pair, the transmission line, will reflect that energy back from the end if the end is not terminated and the energy is not absorbed. That is why the light bulb works as a load or termination. I don't know why or if using twisted pairs would work to prevent difficulties with DCS that are mostly cured with a light bulb load to prevent or minimize reflections.

Also, stranded wire does not help much to increase the surface area of a wire unless the strands are insulated from each other. There is some gain in surface area since the surface of stranded wire has bumps and valleys, but the surface of each strand cannot be counted in the total area. Stranded wire that is meant to have increased surface area by having insulated strands is called Litz wire.

By the way, telephone cables that run thru neighborhoods have bundles of 25 pairs in them. Each pair is twisted to prevent or minimize cross coupling between the pairs or to prevent picking up nearby noise such as in power lines. And each bundle of 25 pairs is itself twisted to minimize coupling from one bundle to the next. There can be many 25 pair bundles in a cable depending on how many total pairs are required in a run.

Gunrunnerjohn -

If this wire was stripped down the middle and separated into two different strands, then twisted together, yes, the theory works just as well.  The idea is to have the wires cross each other, so that the RF fields are disturbed and can't line up with each other in close parallel proximity to each other.  Twisting achieves this, whether the twists are evenly spaced or not.  (In critical circuitry, there are standards as to how many twists per inch are required, according to frequency, wire length, wire type, etc., but it doesn't apply here in our modeling world.)  Just twisting this pair without separating it doesn't achieve anything; the wires are still parallel to each other. 

I agree with Overlandflyer regarding using stranded wire.  Most copper wire is an alloy, to give it strength and flexibility without breaking.  Pure copper wire is expensive and generally has a hefty insulating material on it to help strengthen it.

If you are using solid wire, don't bundle them next to each other or twist them.  Attach them to your table separately, keeping a half inch or so between them, and they won't couple with each other.

Thanks to everyone for the input.

Mike 

To answer overlandflyer' question about composition of this wire I followed the "See Sellers Other Items" link and all of the other wire listed is 'Copper Clad Aluminum Wire'.

So I would guess that would apply to this also.

I use 14 gauge, 4 conductor trailer cable plus a separate 10 gauge ground wire.  I have a double track mainline, two conductors are used for the hot track wire, the other two are used for accessories and switches.

500' feet 14 Gauge Red Black Stranded 2 Conductor Speaker Wire Car Home Audio

ok - after double checking I didn't place the right e bay link in my original post.  The link above is the wire that I am thinking of buying.  If you scroll down the page it does state that the wire is 99.9% oxygen free copper.  Don't know what "oxygen free" copper is though - any ideas????

What's the consensus out there???

Should I split the wire???

If so, how much space should I leave between the hot and common wires????

Oxygen free is when they add less oxygen during the smelting process. It's supposed to improve conductivity. Debatable.

As far as using twisting pairs so a pair does not couple to another pair, you don't need to split the wires. Twisting the zip cord is sufficient. I would split it if I wanted to vary the twist frequency which is how the telephone twisted pairs are manufactured to decrease the likelihood of having a pair couple to another pair.

I just hung up the telephone with the company that sells this wire.  It is not all copper as advertised but "copper clad" - the owner apologized for the mistake in the ad and will refund my money.  

Much ado about nothing!

Paul

I always use Monoprice,prices are good as well as quality. Price you had was nice but as you can see, it is not similar.

I love it when what appears to be a simple question leads to such an interesting conversation!

Denny - you're so right!  I never knew about the idea of not running common and hot wires parallel to each other.  Mike really gave me an education on "twisted wires"!

Oh well, I cancelled my order but still need some feedback on star wiring.  I have about 28 feeder wire drops on my new layout and, in the past, have always run a common and a hot (14 gauge wire) to a terminal block tying them together with a plastic harness - never had trouble with my DCS signal.  Based on what Mike stated I'm now reluctant to do this -

Need some member feedback -

Paul 

quote:

Also, stranded wire does not help much to increase the surface area of a wire unless the strands are insulated from each other.

Litz wire is made this way to avoid the "skin effect". The higher the frequency of the signal, the more pronounced the impact. From what I have read, there is no skin effect with D.C., and it is negligible with 60 cycle AC.

Woweee...what an education a guy can get from reading some of these posts!!

Best forum of the Best forum!!