Help, Lionel Fast Track,,

My first instinct is that if you're getting a short from both loops on one transformer is that in your hookups one set of hookups got switched around.  I don't know what convention Lionel transformers use, for MTH, I know it's red to the center rail and black to the outside. But if you reversed that with one of the loops, that would cause the short.

First, the biggest thing is understanding the known failure modes of certain items you are using.

Example: CW80 transformers- certain models may have the red posts of both the accessory and track outputs as common. This causes HUGE problems when you then connect something like a switch to aux power that also uses the outside rails as common.

Second known equipment issue- especially O-72 Fastrack switches- might have the power terminals out of order compared to the labeling- and you might accidentally be connecting your aux power into the 3rd rail of the track. No you fault, but again a known problem with internal miswiring of the switches.

You said you removed the switch jumper, but that sounded like the jumper for aux power. What about the track jumper for 3rd rail in the short piece between the 2 switches to isolate 3rd rail between the inner and outer loop. That is a different jumper.

Last factor in anytime using 2 transformers- regardless of same brand, same model, you should check for phase difference.

Again, sorry, but lots of chances to cause the problems you are experiencing and there may be layers of error or mistake here. You fix one thing, but that still doesn't fix the overall system.

If you flip the two transformers does the outside loop still work or does it follow the transformer?  I have read somewhere about having to "phase" multiple transformers.  I wonder if that is the problem as removing the jumpers in the 1 3/8" tracks the outside rails would still be connected. 

But I would agree it sounds like you may have a short.   I think I would start by discounting/removing one switch track at a time from the inner loop and see if that stops from throwing the red light.  If removing one solves the problem maybe double check the wires on the switch track.

Good luck!

Again, honestly, to not get into a big deal, first put the jumpers back into the switches and run them off track power as there is far less problem, you won't have to "fix" the switch wiring internal and then by doing so- you also are less likely to invoke the CW80 early version red posts being common issue.

Then, focus on ensuring you really did isolate the 2 loops and probably it might start working.

Verify that the layout works correctly on two transformers with the two 1 3/8 pieces removed completely.  This would eliminate the common outside rail ground that still connects the loops even when the jumpers are removed.  At that point, you would have two layouts.

To save you some time I think this thread is explaining the issue Vernon mentioned about the o72 fastrack switches internal wiring.

https://ogrforum.com/...switch-short-problem

You are all the best!

I'm  gonna review all this again and again and in the morning hopefully we will  be running Christmas Day! How do I  properly phase my two CW 30's. Sounds like I definitely need to check the switch wiring. In the end, and just for Christmas day, if I replace the jumpers in the switches do I have to unwire the accessory wiring to transformer? So Much to learn, This is going to be Great!

Merry Christmas and Thank You for Replying!

Best!!

Thanks Vernon Barry!

@Bret’s Trains posted:

You are all the best!

I'm  gonna review all this again and again and in the morning hopefully we will  be running Christmas Day! How do I  properly phase my two CW 30's. Sounds like I definitely need to check the switch wiring. In the end, and just for Christmas day, if I replace the jumpers in the switches do I have to unwire the accessory wiring to transformer? So Much to learn, This is going to be Great!

Merry Christmas and Thank You for Replying!

Best!!

I would recommend putting the metal jumpers back for simplicity. To be absolutely clear, this is the small metal tab jumper covered in fastrack switch instructions that connects where the wire terminals are in the middle of the switch.

Again, the logic here is, some, maybe many of these switches have been found to have a factory error, where the function of the wire terminal was cross and mismatched compared to the labels. Specifically often times, the rack 3rd rail being swapped with the internal wiring that actually powers the logic of the switch. Because of this, with the track power "jumper" metal tab piece installed, even if the terminal order was swapped- the switched worked off track power correctly and passed the simple "does it work" test at the factory using track power. It's when you go connecting a wire- to what you think and is labeled aux power in- but actually, inside the switch, many are incorrectly connecting that specific aux terminal to 3rd rail with a relatively small gauge wire. This "mistake" effectively shorts the aux power to the 3rd rail of the track.

Again, as a simple fix, since most likely it worked on track power from the factory, simplify your wiring by installing that jumper and not wiring the switch to the aux power post of the transformer. This also solves a condtion, where certain early CW80s might have a design that the red posts were common (shorted together inside the CW80 by design).

That said, you also need to ensure the 2 loops are isolated. The easy way was completely unplugging the 2 tracks at the switch joints, but that may no be ideal and defeats the purpose of the switches being there. So ensure at least on of the short pieces at the crossover point is isolated by removing the wire jumper.

this is the jumper wire to remove on the short 1 and 3/8 in pieces - to isolate the 3rd rail between 2 loops of track connected by 2 switches.

Last, transformer phasing. This is an important concept to understand. When using 2 transformers (or more) if phasing is wrong, the voltages ADD UP to a voltage that can damage other train equipment or the transfromers. Again, simple concept, because outside rail is expected to be and typically is common on a layout, when using multiple (greater than one) transformer, there is a chance that the voltage of the 2 transformers adds and makes 36V- which exceeds most train related devices maximum voltage.

So, I do disagree with one answer telling you to just reverse the plug- implying that you kept everything as wired, and just changed the phasing of one transformer- without disconnecting the track and switches. I say disagree, because I'm concerned just swapping the plug actually could cause out of phase and damage something as wired.

What I'm saying is, you should validate the transformer phasing, with only the transformers and one piece of wire connecting the black common track post, nothing attached to the red posts, and use a meter or light bulb, turn both transformers to full on (CW80 is actually about 16-18V) and ideally, you should read zero to maybe 2V between the red track posts of the 2 transformers. If you read additive (say 16+16=32V to around 36V) then the transformers are out of phase, and in your use case potentially some device or train or the switches might have seen that 36V damaging them.

Phasing video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iASQfnE6pCk

Also, while not what you want, but could get you running relatively safely, just completely isolate the 2 loops, remove or just disconnect the 2 switches.

Phasing would not matter, and the 2 tracks would be completely independent.

Hoping you can run in the morning- Merry Christmas.

Ditto what Vernon says…gets you running

I reviewed the transformer phase video. If I replace jumpers on aux in on all switches and run the loops as originally designed would i leave the two common post connected with black wire on transformers and wire tracks as normal. Im thinking that the switches are probably wired incorrectly from factory atvthis point to do what i am trying to do. Is there a best or better book i can read to help me understand this electrical topic more?

Best

Good Afternoon and Merry Christmas,

I was awaken early this am to be notified that the clubhouse at our marina had busted pipes and flooded the entire building. Just getting home from that blow by old man winter. I think I will have a drink, and get back to my train issues and let you all now how it goes.

Best!

Bret