Help! Need desperate help in finding Lionel motor part

You might have to buy complete donors in the aftermarket, you may be able to do it reducing the cost by parting them out completely.

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Editorial:

An eloquent demonstration of the problems with modern, un-repairable model RR equipment. If these things had been $50 each, or were 40 years old, OK. But, toast at 10 years? Requiring an electronic gutting to ERR (as long as that option lasts...), let's say?

I have modern stuff. This scenario is awaiting all of us. Some in years, some next week.

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Sorry. Not helpful with the current problem. Back to your regularly scheduled thread.

And best of luck; I sympathize. 

The bummer is these were new in the box... all of them...

Yes that would be the worse case scenario at 200 bucks a pop...

J, whats wrong with the motors? From your description they sound like Odyssey motors. Its common for the magnets to break, less common for the sensor board to go bad. Both can be replaced.

Pete

Thanks Pete for your reply... all motors have the same issues:

flywheel and magnet good.

Odyssey boards good.

Motor housing bushings bad inside the frame of the motor, they actual are binding when you try to turn the motors manually.

This makes one really miss Boxcar Bill.

Have you contacted Chuck Sartor?

There were some Dash 8's put out in that time frame that used the same motor. Same story on those at Lionel-N/A

That is pretty bizarre. The bearings are oilite. Apologies for asking but have you tried a drop of oil on each end then turning by hand to see if they free up?

BTW the motors are common as dirt Mabuchi RS385s. What would make them different is the gear.

Pete

No I have not do you have a contact for Chuck?

Yes, I have, they free up a bit but not enough, the sister motor starts to heat up and is hot to the touch.

Yes I ordered by mistake the other motor Lionel lists as the repair for this unit and the worm is a .354 inch in diameter. 

Is there a way to pull the worm off and swap it?

Lionel lists the part number you listed as available. (620-8630-010) This is without the sensor board. The one listed with the sensor board is 620-8630-011 is the one not available. If needed you can replace the motor without the sensor in place of the one with the speed sensor and use a ERR TMCC kit for the speed control.

You can remove the worm, I have done it, but it is difficult and requires a strong puller. I did it without heat but if I had to do it again I would heat the gear using a resistance soldering pencil or maybe a mini torch.

The hard part is reinstalling the gear without bending the shaft. What I ended up doing is drilling out the bore and using CA to hold the gear in place. Again you have to be careful not to get the CA in the bearing.

It would be easier to get the non sensor motor, remove the flywheel from it and the flywheel and sensor from the bad motor and reinstall using the special flywheel plus magnet with the set screw. No danger of bending the shaft assuming you got the original flywheel off successfully.

Still puzzled though on how many motors would seize up unless the gear or flywheel is pushed up against the case.

Pete

Hi Chuck- thank you for your reply. Surprised I got the wrong numbers from Lionel-

motor with sensor = 620-8230-101

motor without sensor = 620-8230-100

Thanks for the proper numbers.

Question on the conversion - if I build the A unit up with this conversion, with the follow B units run at the same speed?

That is a big problem with Lionel having like 4 or 5 different incompatible motor and truck combinations in the scale F-3's.

Pete - I think your right on the best attack - get the sister motors and add the sensor boards to them and repair kit flywheel and magnets.  How is the sensor board attached to the top of the motor? Also what tool will I need to fasten the repair magnet / flywheel down?

Thanks for the help

To be honest Lionel has made so many F-3's... however I have noticed That between the years 2003 to 2005 they do have the same gearing and motors.

It really is bad practice on their part not to supply any more parts for such a needed item. 

Not sure I agree with their policy on NOT repairing any items older than 5 years.

This will affect future customer loyalty. I future products I purchase.

Part of the problem is the Chinese factories. They refuse to make spare parts. It's just not in their culture of making disposable assemblies. In addition to that, they refuse to re-make an item the same way they made it last time. They call it continuous improvement.

When my buddy lost a motor in a Lionel SP Daylight Atlantic, I sent the motor to Timko. He removed the flywheel and sensor and installed them on a new motor - for a very cheap price.

You could try him.

Hi,  Putting the gear back on the shaft is easy.  Put the motor in the freezer and the gear on the stove.  When you feel they are ready, put on heavy gloves, slide the gear on, set it down and let it cool. 

Any chance you can break in the motors by leaving them detached from the motor truck, and just running them a while (while making certain the bearings have oil)?

The sensor board is soldered to the brush lugs and can easily be removed by carefully unsoldering. Pulling and replacing the magnet/flywheel is the difficult part. If you convert one to ERR and leave the other 2 TMCC it should not be a problem, just set the ERR equipped engine to 32 speed steps and they will run reasonably well together.

The problem with the ERR solution is J has other Odyssey engines in this setup. Converting them all would get pricey and I am pretty sure it would be difficult to get ERR engines to run with Odyssey engines in a Lashup.

Pete

I think Pete is right on this one. I am afraid that If I convert one and not the others they will fight each other over time.

sounds good... so it sounds like pulling off the worm would be the hardest part...

I tried this. Ran them for a good hour and the sister motor got so hot the shell was heating up. I even tried lubing the motor bearings all the the gears and ran for another hour... the sister motor was still very hot. 

What was the tell tail was when I disassembled the motor would not spin as freely as the others felt like there was chewing gum in it....

I think what just really gripes my cookies is if you go to their website... which is a pain...

and click on archive products you can still buy a powered B unit from their web store!!!!!! 

BTW what happened to the online catalogs before 2010? I cannot access them anymore.

http://www.clrctrains.com/new%5Clionelcatalogs.aspx

Another possiblity as to what is causing this is a loose magnet. They are glued to the housing. Can you hear or feel a scraping noise? This can happened if they are exposed to extreme temperatures.

Pete

Carefully chuck the motor in a lathe , mount flywheel in chuck , put a center in the worm gear , carefully turn the worm down , .350 to.324 , .026 is only .013 removed , A good lathe man could do it  easily.Not much to remove.

Don't forget the Cruise Commander M has a 'nudge mode' which is meant for lashing up (multiple unit) for Lionel Odyssey diesels.

re-cut the worm? Wish I had that skill...and the lathe. My luck a couple of turns and there would just be a nub left...

That's right forgot about that... 

Pete- I hear the scraping noise but it sounds like its coming from the shaft and housing, but I hope its this easy... will check it tonight...

J, I am referring to the magnets inside the case, not the ring magnet. If it turns out to be that magnet its time to toss the motor. To even attempt a repair, both the flywheel and gear would have to come off, then the case opened up.

Pete

Where do you come up with these notions?  So the Chinese tell you how your contract will be done?  A manufacture sends in a request for work and quote, and the Chinese provide the cost to produce.  If you want 50 extra consumable motors, gears, and such, you put it in the RFQ.

For something like a motor, many times they are out sourced.  So if your making 1000 units you can order 1050 motors.

It is the manufacture that allows the Chinese to do it the way they want to, usually to get a better cost estimate.  If you really want all the F-3 motors to be the same you spec if that way, and you QA the product before full production.  G

I agree with Rob-- you'll have to cannibalize from a donor loco of similar vintage.  Welcome to repair in the modern era.

Lionel went through a rapid evolution during the 2000s, from using a clone of the Korean-made MTH/Weaver truck block, to the single axle "LionDrive," to back-drivable Legacy with all wheels powered.  I'm not sure how much they changed the chassis, or how that impacts the interchangeability of motors.  But I would even look into upgrading to Legacy by buying the replacement parts for later-model F-3's.  Kind of like putting a new DOHC Ford 5.0 Liter into a '65 Mustang.  No, the train wouldn't be original, but it would be better.  Buying the parts individually isn't *that* expensive, relative to the cost of a new loco.

What do the Chinese have to do with this motor? Mabuchi is a Japanese company. They are responsible for the quality regardless of where its manufactured.

J, I think Rob suggested your best solution. Send the motors to Frank Timko. By the time you order the parts and puller you will likely have spent what Frank would do it for. BTW Frank sells the puller many here recommend getting.

Pete

True if it is a Mabuchi.  What makes you think they are?  Many have adopted the nomenclature and size standards but they may not be a Mabuchi spec motor.  Same with Pittman now Ametek.  There are other manufacturers that make the same size, shape and look Pittman motors.

Unless it has the Mabuchi stamp or sticker, who knows who's motor it is.  G

What is / who has Mr. Timko's contact information? After reading this I have concluded that it might be better to get him to do the work unless you can find unit to bust up for parts. I feel you pain

Today, I called them for replacement traction tires for my new Big Boy and my Milwaukee Road 267 - UP came out last year and the 261/267 a few years ago. I had to speak to customer service/ warranty service to get the "new" traction tire part - using the same replacement part even though the sizes are different. Took a little time, got what I needed. After this post I am going on line and ordering more Traction Tires for all my Lionel units. 

Next service and support site is MTH => Hello Midge.

Finally, from someone that is in the supply chain and works with Asian manufactures, the OEM is king, you want 1,000 they build 1,000 you want 10,000 they build 10,000. It is up to me to take the risk on holding repair parts. If I run out, I can get more but it would be based on some quantity they quote. Again, I either buy or don't - boils down to costs.

Same issue with the track shortage at MTH and Atlas. You need to buy in lots - 

J. Daddy,

I am certainly not the repair expert, but someone mentioned earlier in the thread the replacement magnet for the Odyssey. I am looking for the part #.

It has set screws to hold it to the shaft when the originals disintegrate.

So, desoldering the small board and putting that on a new motor and then the replacement flywheel\magnet seems like something you can do.

Here's the part: Odyssey flywheel fix-it

Courtesy of Boxcar Bill