Help - No Legacy / LCS-BPC2 Control Over On/Off Power to All Sidings

Hello OGR,

Recycling this since it was posted during York and may have been passed over ... and INCLUDED NEW INPUT from testing ...

Test Results:

• In testing – with ZW(L) driving primary track power in “CMD” mode – I did receive positive RED LED Flash on all three BPC2s whenever I tried activate power each of the 13 sidings.
  • The red flashes occurred whether I used my Cab II Aux-1/2 buttons, or my iPad pushing track-power-on light bulbs on each siding.
• In the above testing, I received negative Power-On (i.e. no Power) to all 13 sidings across all BPC2s. Despite power not going on in this testing I always clearly heard the BPC2 relay click

To ensure BPC2 programming is not lost ...  I turned off the ZW(L), turned in back on in “CONV” mode Test ResultsEDUCED

• ALL Sidings come on with positive power
• I could turn on/off power for selected siding with CAB II using TR-ID-Aux1/2 commands. Worked 100% time
• I could turn on/off power for selected siding with iPad light-bulb on/off commands. Worked 100% time
• This tells me that the BPC2 data is being kept, not lost. Agreed?
• ? HYPOTHESIS SOURCE OF PROBLEM - Power NOT Going to BPC2 via relays ?
  • From the “CONV” mode case, the BPC2 support power for operating its relays – coming from ZW(R) D-post – does get to operate the BPC2 module’s relays to allow track power from ZW(L) to correctly be on/off to the sidings.
  • MY HYPOTHESIS: I would not have thought that the Breakers I installed on all the transformer posts would interfere in power flow.
• Does anyone have expertise that can look into whether a ZW(L) with breakers on its outputs affects power flow?

One last quick test i plan to try:  move one of my ZW(R) transformers in place of the ZW(L) for track power and see if things work with the breakers. If yes, then either the ZW(L) is bad or poorly designed, or I keep the ZW(L) and run without external breakers as extra precaution.

You all have way more expertise than I - any thoughts????

- Ken

@Ken Gillig posted:

Hello OGR Colleagues,

A problem arose that confuses me greatly. My power configuration is shown in the attached schematic.

I added fast acting breakers between my three transformer’s complete set of outputs and first connections to wire buses. I used Airpax Sensata Circuit Protectors (Snap-acting breakers), installed in-line on wires coming out of each transformer output:

-       10 Amp breakers (sku PP11-0-10.00A-OB-V) on the ZW(L) transformer outputs

-       5 Amp breakers (sku PP11-0-5.00A-OB-V) on both of the ZW(R) transformers' outputs

IMPORTANT NOTE: This was done because I experienced a damaging volt surge that destroyed my brand-new ZW(L) PCB board that had to be repaired under Lionel RA.

MAJOR PROBLEM - Now part of my Legacy Control with LCS Modules no longer work. When I bring up the ZW(L) in “CMD” mode, and when using either the CAB II – OR – when using the iPad, the three BPC2s do not switching on any of the selected eleven sidings to have power. The sidings are permanently off without power.

·    Please see the demo of this issue's symptoms in the attached video below ...

WhVideo Part-A: when the ZW(L) is brought up in "CONV" mode, all sidings come up with power ON, and I am able to turn off/on at will a selected siding using my iPad connected to LCS. The BPC2 must be working properly to allow the on/off commands of power at will.

VidVideo Part-B: when the ZW(L) is brought up in "CMD" mode, all sidings come up with power OFF. I can try but if always fails to turn on/off at will a selected siding wither using my iPad again connected to LCS, or my CABII selecting the appropriate siding "TR" TMCC id. The iPad way of controlling makes it look like the siding gets turned on or off but in fact no power gets into the siding.

WCMy best guess: the LCS signal in ZW(L) transformer "CMD" mode is not getting through correctly to the BPC2 module to send current into the siding through its relays.

Is tIs there a rational explanation about ZW(L) and breakers? Do i have to run without breakers?

I hII hope someone can explain what is going on. Please let me know your thoughts. Thanks for reading!

Re  Regards, Ken

Iss

Is

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If you want to protect your ZW-L install TVS’s on each terminal this will protect the transformer from transient spikes.

Thanks - I have TVSs on each Hot-U pair as well - on ZW(L) and two ZW(R)

INITIAL Issue - ZW(L) in CMD  mode cannot work with breakers on outputs

Additional Test Results on Sunday:

• Today (Sunday) I disconnected ONLY my ZW(L) and replaced it in kind with a post-war refurbished ZW(R) to provide track power to four loops (A, B, C, D) exactly as done with the ZW(L)
  • I left all Airpax Sensata Circuit Protectors (Snap-acting breakers) in place on all transformers: 10.0 Amp for track power outputs, 5.0 Amp for special track and accessory power outputs
• With ZW(R) - instead of ZW(L) - with breakers on outputs - works fine with Legacy Control .... When started up with Legacy Control ALL sidings came up with power, and I was able to turn power on/off with either CAB II or iPad commands.
• I was able to run a diesel locomotive in Legacy Mode.

Conclusion: either ...

a ZW(L) transformer is deemed by Lionel to not be supposed to have breakers on their outputs (since there are breakers on the inside)

OR

a ZW(L) transformer is deemed by Lionel that it can have breakers on their outputs (despite having breakers on the inside)

Test results being sent into Lionel - awaiting (but will push) to get their reply!

- Hard to believe but test results seem to prove out - no breakers on ZW(L) in CMD mode.

Will report back after talking with Lionel!

- Ken

Correction: either ...

a ZW(L) transformer is deemed by Lionel to not be supposed to have breakers on their outputs (since there are breakers on the inside), and I will remove breakers from my ZW(L) to run the layout leaving TVS diodes only on ZW(L) outputs.

OR

a ZW(L) transformer is deemed by Lionel that it can have breakers on their outputs (despite having breakers on the inside), and maybe my ZW(L) had a problem needing to be fixed in a third RA to Lionel. or alternatively use a different power source than ZW(L) ... e.g. 4-180W PowerHouses (? unsure)

- Hard to believe but test results seem to prove out - no breakers on MY specific ZW(L) in CMD mode.

Will report back after talking with Lionel!

-Ken

Hello OGR,

If anyone has read this chain I will provide you the FINAL update here.

Turns out fast action breakers on my ZW(L) transformer had nothing to do with any power on/off control of sidings, or on any track for that matter.

My ZW(L) had been twice sent in under warranty RA for repair, and my Legacy Control had also been sent in twice under warranty RA for repair. Getting those two pieces back from their second repair trip to Lionel has revealed that in CMD mode for the ZW(L) zero volts is coming out to the track. CONV mode does product volts to track - albeit not the publicized 18v+ per ZW(L) output ... more like 16+ or 17+ volts across the four outputs.

Now I must navigate the world of post-warranty for possibly both pieces of equipment, with replacements at the elevated market prices they demand. Unsatisfactory - yes.

This POST chain is now CLOSED.

- Ken

What do you perceive is the problem with the Legacy command system?  If you're running trains with it, I'm confused as to what you think is wrong with it?

Hi GRJ

i removed breakers from transformer outputs, to eliminate a recent change variable.

I can run trains in CONV mode setting for my ZW(L), and I get voltage on all tracks, main and sidings.

When I reset ZW(L) to CMD mode I cannot start any trains, and I get no voltage reading on any track. CAB II does not do anything.

Not sure now what is going on. Suspect a remaining problem with either ZW(L) or Legacy Base Return Auth “fix”

I need a strategy to figure source of no volt output in CMD mode.

Ken

Is reinstalling CabII and Base software appropriate or too drastic?

@Ken Gillig posted:

Hello OGR,

If anyone has read this chain I will provide you the FINAL update here.

Turns out fast action breakers on my ZW(L) transformer had nothing to do with any power on/off control of sidings, or on any track for that matter.

My ZW(L) had been twice sent in under warranty RA for repair, and my Legacy Control had also been sent in twice under warranty RA for repair. Getting those two pieces back from their second repair trip to Lionel has revealed that in CMD mode for the ZW(L) zero volts is coming out to the track. CONV mode does product volts to track - albeit not the publicized 18v+ per ZW(L) output ... more like 16+ or 17+ volts across the four outputs.

Now I must navigate the world of post-warranty for possibly both pieces of equipment, with replacements at the elevated market prices they demand. Unsatisfactory - yes.

This POST chain is now CLOSED.

- Ken

Just to double check some very basic things about the ZWL before you send it in for repair.

when you put The ZW in command mode it does not automatically send a full power to the track, do you need to do two things:

First - you need to set the handles to the max power that you want to put out to the track. If the handles are all the way back you will get 0 V to the track. in your video you catch a quick glimpse of your transformer and it looks like your handles are pushed forward, but I’m not sure if that was in conventional mode or a command mode and I can’t see all four handles.

Second - if the halt button or other kill power was sent, you need to reset the power. assuming you set each zone as its own TR. On the legacy remote - TR ID# BOOST or TR ID# turn the dial. You need to do this for each zone on the ZW.

Not saying that this is your problem or you did not try this, but it was not clear from the thread, so I thought I would throw it out there for you just in case.

Good luck

Set the ZW-L to conventional, put a TMCC or Legacy locomotive on the tracks and advance the power to 18 volts.  Can you control the locomotive with the Legacy command system.  If so, I don't see why you're thinking the Legacy system is the problem.

GRJ

i did what you said and I can run in CONV mode using my  CABII, but … please forgive my ignorance, what does CMD mode give you?

And for that matter, what exactly does CMD mode actually instruct the ZW(L) to do (different from CONV mode)?

Can’t find any doc or posting that answers these questions.

Ken

PS - Thanks Edward G. ….. ZW(L) handles were forward.

@Ken Gillig posted:

GRJ

i did what you said and I can run in CONV mode using my  CABII, but … please forgive my ignorance, what does CMD mode give you?

And for that matter, what exactly does CMD mode actually instruct the ZW(L) to do (different from CONV mode)?

Can’t find any doc or posting that answers these questions.

Ken

PS - Thanks Edward G. ….. ZW(L) handles were forward.

Command mode makes the outputs full on or full off. Basically 18V on or OFF.

Variable mode- AKA conventional mode- allows you to vary the voltage.

Thanks: Vernon Barry,

I honestly thought it was more complicated than that.

Assuming that is all that CMD is, it would confirm that I have received when purchased a faulty ZW(L) as I have never been able to get the ZW(L) up to 18v.

-Ken

Said the appropriate way - my "CMD" mode does not work on my ZW(L).

One question about ZW(L) and CMD mode...

I tried to reprogram an engine in CMD mode and that was a no-o - no power, no anything. The re-program steps in the ZW(L) manual and Legacy Control manual di not generate anything.

I hesitate trying to program (or reprogram) an engine in CONV mode for fear of blowing the engine.

You are not going to do any damage to a Legacy or TMCC engine with 18VAC on the tracks!  My layout consists of four PH180 bricks for power, when I turn on the tracks, there's 18VAC on them.  My engines love it!

Reset the ZW-L to conventional mode and test a command engine, that will tell you if the Legacy system is functional.

When a ZW-L is in "Command Mode" it allows the Legacy System, Cab1L / Base1L, or Cab1 TMCC to operate it.  When in Command, the throttles are physically set to a desired maximum voltage and when powered will be zero, then using the Cab2 you address the output you want to control and raise it using the red dial.  It will go from zero up to the physically set handle voltage and anywhere in between. 

In conventional, it acts just like a regular transformer.  You use the handles to increase and decrease voltage to the track.  If the handles are all the way up when you power up then the voltage will jump to that setting on those outputs.

In either mode the HALT button will shut it down.

@Ken Gillig posted:

Thanks: Vernon Barry,

I honestly thought it was more complicated than that.

Assuming that is all that CMD is, it would confirm that I have received when purchased a faulty ZW(L) as I have never been able to get the ZW(L) up to 18v.

-Ken

Let me provide a little bit more details on the difference between command mode, and conventional mode, as it can be a little tricky, to understand.

In conventional mode, the transformer acts like any other transformer made by Lionel or anybody else. You push the handles forward to increase voltage to the track you pull them back to lower the voltage from going to the track. The transformer knows nothing about Legacy or TMCC. if you only have legacy or TMCC engines, you set the transformer to full power and you run your engines from your cab remote. if you want to run a conventional engine in conjunction with a command engine, you control the conventional engine with the lever on The CW and you control the command, engine on the cab remote.

in command mode, the ZW acts like above and a power master built in. in other words it’s two devices in one. it’s actually like five devices in one, one 4 output transformer, and four power masters. The advantage of the power master is to allow you to control a conventional engine from your cab remote. You set the max voltage with the handles and then you vary the voltage to run a conventional engine with the cab remote. To use this functionality you must program the ZW, usually as a TR ID number. Each output will get an ID +1 number, so if you program output a as TR 1, output b is TR 2, etc. this assumed you would have the transformer in 4 channel mode. You also need to turn the power on with the boost button as I explained in my earlier post.

I think your problem is the ZW is not programmed correctly for command operation, as I explained earlier. The simple test for this is the ability to run a conventional engine and control the speed with the cab remote.

Hope this helps.

Thanks (GRJ, Vernon, Marty) for the comments!

Setting ZW(L) in CONV and running engine, cannot stop engine and put in reverse with CABII middle press of Boost button

In CONV mode, engine smokes despite being set in no-smoke mode as well as trying to push CABII smoke-off icon

if I set the ZW-L to “CMD” mode and put an engine on track, select it via CabII and TMCC ID, turn up power with red button, and try CABII start icon, no nothing, all is silent.

I tried reprogramming engine with a CABII reset - nothing.

Do these non-functioning symptoms sound like:

- CMD mode on ZW(L) not functional?

- Base and CABII not functional?

-  it if both not working together properly?

-Ken

I'd get the Legacy system fixed/replaced.  First step is to see if the CAB2 has fresh batteries.  Next, does the command base right hand square LED flicker when you select an engine on the CAB2 and rotate the big red knob?

Lionel is still fixing the CAB2 remotes, but they no longer repair the Legacy command bases.

Hi John

Thanks for the counsel on the Legacy System. Batteries are good  - I use the ones you have recommended along with two of the charger you recommended - I am keeping plenty of batteries ready rather than relying on Base recharge or #993 spare Cab II recharger.

What of the  symptoms and test info I shared makes you think it’s more of a Legacy system vs ZW(L) problem?

Have to test the Base right hand square LED Flickr when engine selected and red dual turned on CabII.

Ken

PS - have not forgotten about the N&W #606 upgrade

One last question: what about reinstalling software in CabII and Base?

I do have current latest versions on both.

I'd first see if the Legacy system is working.  It would be a rare event if the Legacy system forgot it's software, and that would also likely be a fatal issue.  Also, there's always a chance that something goes amiss doing a firmware update, why chance it if you don't have to?

John - Thanks - makes sense. Got to check my emotion, think clearly.

Hi GRJ,

On your last suggestion about CABII rotation of big RED button after engine selection, my results were:

- Right Hand Square LED lights flicker in CMD mode - YES, but no engine movement or light up

- Right Hand Square LED lights flicker in CONV mode - Yes, and engine moves and lights up.

- same results if using CABII to select engine and pushing START engine button

Also in testing the RED lights on LCS modules (BPC2, ...) do flicker when commands are issued, just no turning in of siding power for BPC2 when ZW(L) in CMD, but in CONV mode sidings can be turned on-off with AUX-1/2 commands.

Lionel was contacted and in-short they have me sending my ZW(L) and my #990 Legacy Command Set in under two separate RAs - even though both are past oner year mark by a couple months.

We'll see what happens. Starting to look for replacements regardless.

- Ken

GRJ,

In one of your comments above you mentioned you were using 4 - PH180 bricks. In your view what is the pro/con of that PH180 vs. ZW(L) besides about $150 less cost (per Charles Ro prices)?

- Ken

Slight adjustment I guess I need a Powermaster for any loop IF I want to run my postwar locos on that loop. I remember these Powermasters are also built into the ZW(L) with the equivalent of 4 Powerhouses.

My prior question about PH180 vs ZW(L) still stands perhaps not on cost, but strict functionality for running Legacy, Vision, and some TMCC trains.

Has this issue been resolved?

Hi amcc-Lionel,

Yes. i sent my ZW(L) and Legacy Command set #990 into Lionel. They checked all out, made a few adjustments to ZW(L) A & D handles. But the root cause was my incorrect usage of the CMD mode in ZW(L).

Thanks for following up and asking.

- Ken