Help trying to build layout I saw on youtube

Its not fastrack in that video. 

Looks like traditional o gauge o31 track. 

I don't know about the component numbers, but here's what I came up with in RR-Track. It uses Lionel track (not FasTrack) and O31 curves/switches. For me, the key was using two 14.5 tracks in each loop. I included the item numbers and maybe it will help you get something working in SCARM.

Here is a layout design that is similar to the Lionel table layout in the video.  It uses O-54 RealTrax. This design allows for a gradual incline for the overhead track.

Thanks for pointing me to Lionel O traditional.

Dave, thanks for the layout build.  It got me started and here's what I've come up with.

Not everything is working, or connecting on my layout build.

How important is it to get everything right in the software layout build?

Is there some wiggle room with the tracks once you get them on the table?

Here is my parts list from the fun SCRAM software layout build I came up with:

I had to use five 301xs to tweak the layout together, and it still doesn't connect.

Do you guys sometimes cut the tracks to make them connect?

No.	Image	Number	Name	Scale	Producer	Pcs.	Note
1		301x‑s	301x‑S	O	Lionel	5
2		6‑14062	4062	O	Lionel	2
3		6‑14063	4063	O	Lionel	2
4		6‑65500	5500	O	Lionel	33
5		6‑65501	5501	O	Lionel	28
6		6‑65505	5505	O	Lionel	6
Total:						76	Tracks count: 76

Here's my SCARM file, in case anyone wants to tweak it around to help out ;-)

Oh, and Pro-Hobby, that looks like a very cool layout too.

What is the difference between the 3 track types?

1) Fastrack

2) O traditional

3) O-54 RealTrax

Am I better off investing in one or the other?

thanks

The track question is the most important to answer.

FasTrack has better switches

RealTrax has curves similar to Lionel O

Lionel O is the least expensive and the quietest by virtue of no plastic roadbed.

You want to make the tracks fit.

Here is a layout design that is similar to the Lionel table layout in the video.  It uses O-48 Lionel Fastrack O. This design allows for a gradual incline for the overhead track.

It all depends on if you want track with attached roadbed or not. I bought an MTH R-T-R set with RealTrax, but I'm switching to more regular track, either Atlas, Ross/GarGraves or Ross/ScaleTrax and the RealTrax will be used for simple Christmas layouts. Ross makes arguably the best switches. GarGraves is inexpensive as far as track prices go. ScaleTrax is arguably the most realistic, but can be difficult to install if not done right. Its FlexTrack is supposedly the easiest to work with. FlexTrack usually gets the nod over RealTrax when it comes to track with attached roadbed, but I haven't had any problems with my RealTrax. FlexTrack is easier to put together, but RealTrax is not all that bad if you read the direction and get the hang of it. Traditional O is the style of track that's been around forever, the least realistic. Both FasTrack and RealTrax can be noisy because the plastic roadbed is hollow underneath, but all track is noisy without adding cork/rubber roadbed, etc. Atlas may be the quietest because its rail are solid, not hollow.

The biggest different IMHO though is the various pieces of track offered by each brand that allow you to maximize your design options. ScaleTrax has limited sized curves (31, 54, 72 and 80). FasTrack has more options than RealTrax. Ross has every switch under the sun. Atlas is more expensive, and so on. However, for a 5x8 layout, most of that probably won't matter that much, though I suspect you could do more with FasTrack than RealTrax because of the added curve options. The nice thing about SCARM and other software is that they let you play with different track libraries to see if the brand of track makes a difference in what you want for a design. I cannot do as much with ScaleTrax switches, so I plan to use Ross switches. I haven't settled on a track to go with the switches yet though.

Elevated tracks can be right on top of the lower track as long as they are high enough for clearance, so that part if not a problem as long as your support allows the train underneath to pass.

The mismatch is partly because of the small section you have on the left side of the loop and it looks like you used three 10" section when the actual length of the section from the turnout I think is only 29". In my example, I used two 14.5" tracks.

Track will give some. The developer of SCARM says the "join error" is set at 2, but that is the default meant for HO. He says it can be increased to something like 3.8 and tracks should fit if they fit in SCARM. We had a discussion on this recently. I'll take a look at the SCARM file after I get some breakfast.

FWIW, I like pro hobby's design, but I don't think it's 5x8.

EDIT: I just looked at the Lionel O library in SCARM and compared it to the one in RR-Track. RR-Track includes a K-Line 072 14.5 track that SCARM doesn't have. That's why I could make mine work and you can't. I have tried everything and can't get SCARM to join all tracks without the 14.5 track, even with the tolerance set to 3.8mm. Will yours work? I suspect so.

In my experience with SCARM so far, I don't get hung up on getting everything to fit together perfectly.

It rarely will, and SCARM doesn't appear to have the ability to create custom length track.

Settle for "close enough" and when you go to build the layout you can usually "cheat" a little and close up small gaps. Larger gaps you can cut custom track sections for.

Revised layout for Lionel Table using RealTrax.  This track design has been made more compact.

Ok, I've been playing with SCARM all day so far and I give up. I am unable to connect the 2 loops completely using Lionel O track pieces. However, I was able to limit the components to those mentioned in the video and I believe things will connect with actual track.

I've attached a photo and the SCARM file. I can't figure out why SCARM insists on placing landscaping on top of the 2 switches, but I'm not proficient with SCARM.

Make the "terrain" invisible to see if the turnouts are then shown.

Yeah, I got that part, but that eliminates all the terrain. It appears to think the curve of the turnout is part of the upper curve or something. It does fine between the turnouts, just not over them. So I played around a bit and extended the upper curve. The terrain followed over all the tracks the curve crossed. Not a big deal, just wondering if I had something set wrong.

Dave, excellent layout build in SCARM.  I love that you got it all working with the original pieces, 39straight, 3 half st, 28 curve, 4 switches, etc.  The .scram file you posted is a lot of fun to play around with, all the colors you added, showing it off in 3D mode, etc.

Pro Hobby, can you post the .scarm file?  Your layout build is basically the same and I'd like to see the parts list for RealTrax and the size of the table needed.

I guess I have to decide which track to go with now.
Dave's layout is perfect with the traditional Lionel O, so maybe.  But after looking at the different track options, there are more realistic ones available..
Question is, could I fit these other layouts in on a 5'x8' table build?

The RealTrax looks like an upgrade from traditional Lionel.

The Atlas track looks very realistic.
And if there's a quieter way to build, that's a plus too.

I do love this layout, so at least I've decided on that.

thanks all,

Philip

DoubleDAZ,

Could you possibly post your RR-Track file for this layout that you showed earlier in the post?  I also think it's an interesting plan and would like to mess around with it using Atlas track.  I would like to see how you did the elevations, I still struggle with those in RR-Track, might help me get over the hump so to speak.  Thanks!

Philip, don't forget, there are 2 connections in the loops that don't match up.

And I would get something that looks better than the Lionel O, but track is a personal preference. Before you think about RealTrax and FasTrack, have someone show them to you if you have a hobby shop in the area. If not, look for an O-Gauge club.

That's a GREAT layout. If you extend the length long-wise by an extra foot (or two), it will be even better. It just needs a teeney-weeny bit more extra space. And extension means you can keep two decent-size trains on the passing siding. And add an acceptable siding at the top of the lower loop (or make the lower loop or upper loop an oval).

Here is my SCARM 3D layout with "bridges added" and full landscape.

I accidently overwrote it when I saved the lasted example, but I can recreate it easy enough. I use RR-Track v5 and files are not compatible with earlier versions, so let me know if you have v5 too. Give me some time and I'll recreate it tonight. I'll also try to add some instructions that might help you figure things out. I need to eat dinner first though, so it might be a couple of hours before I get it posted.

Ok, here are a photo of the 2D layout, a 3D view and the RRT file. I made 3 changes to the original. I did this to get the inside oval away from the incline along the top.

1. Used to be a 5.5" track piece.

2. Used to include a 5.5" track piece.

3. Used to be a 10" piece.

Now, when it comes to grades, here's what I do:

- Enable the option "selections include grades" using the Options menu. This lets you change things later without having to individually select each track again.

- Select all tracks and reset track height using the Grade/zero track height menu item.

- Select all the tracks you want on another level. In this example, that is all the Green tracks.

- Set their height using the Grades/set track height option. I used 6".

- Select all tracks you want to use for the incline. In this example, that is all the purple tracks.

- Set the grade using the Grade/Create grade menu item. In this example, the grade comes to 3.9%, a little too high for some.

- That's it! Let me now if you have any questions.

Note that the tracks are different colors. I do this by selecting a color for each layer and then moving the appropriate tracks to that layer.  Blue is layer Track 1 (level 1), Green is layer Track 2 (level 2) and purple is layer Track 3 (incline). Some use the right-click/color track option, but I prefer to use layers to keep things straight.

Hope some of this helps.

DoubleDAZ,

Wow, thanks for going to all that effort! Wasn't expecting you to have to re-create it  all a second time, hope it wasn't too much trouble.  It is appreciated!  Going to print out the instructions you provided and fiddle with it a little later this evening. Grand kids been here since yesterday afternoon, just left, and I'm a bit worn down! They have a lot more energy than grandpa! But they are a lot of fun!

I do have RR-Track 5.xx something, it's the latest version they have, so I can use the file from your version. Got a copy of SCARM also, but am "heavily" invested in RR-Track from a couple years ago and one layout program is enough for me to try and master.

Thanks again, maybe I can finally grasp the elevation thing with all the help you have provided here!

It wasn't any trouble at all, so don't think twice about it. And, if you have questions on the elevations stuff, don't hesitate to ask (or even email me), I'll be glad to try to help.

One note, the heights and grades are already part of the file, so if you want to play, be sure to select all the tracks and zero the track heights (grades/zero track height) before you start. Oh, and might be best to play on a copy and save the original.

Like you, I also have both programs, mostly because SCARM didn't have RealTrax until recently and still doesn't have ScaleTrax. While I'm getting better with SCARM, I still find RR-Track easier and quicker, but certainly at a price when compared to "free".

DoubleDAZ,

Thanks again and glad you didn't have to go to too much trouble re-doing things. Had a chance to fiddle with it some following your grade directions. I was fiddling with layers before but never thought of trying to put the grades on different layers. Now, thanks to your directions, I have a better understanding on both features and pretty much have them figured out (I think). It's all starting to make more sense anyway.

I previously had created a new layer called "floor plan" and made a layout of my full basement that I have been using for all my beginning test plans. That seems to work well too, but it's quite a large drawing and the layout ends up in one little space and is pretty small. May have to break it down in to smaller sections.

With your instructions I've managed to recreate an 8x18 Atlas layout of the original layout (or close to it anyway) using O-54 as the smallest curves with layers, grades and all, even added a couple of sidings in the larger space!

If anyone is interested I would be happy to post the RR-Track v5 file of the larger layout in Atlas track. 

Thanks again!

Now that you've got the track layout, then next challenge is going to be wiring it up to work automatically with two trains like the one in the youtube video!

DoubleDAZ  (and others) did a good job of explaining the different track types, I will try to add a little bit here. At least what I have learned so far. Also why I have gone with Atlas for my layout. I'm by no means an expert! Picking your track is important and also a personal preference thing. I would highly recommend looking in to the different types before making your final choice. In the end it's your layout, use what you think is best for you so you get the most enjoyment out of it!

Lionel O & O27 is 'the original' and possibly has more of a 'toy train' look. It is hollow and a bit loud, as is all hollow rail track. Probably 'old reliable' and the least expensive.

Lionel O & O27, Fastrack, RealTrax, Gargraves, Ross are hollow rail. Fastrack and Realtrax will be the loudest because of the plastic road bed. Personally I like the looks of the road beds on both track systems. I was all set to use Fastrack myself until discovering how loud it really was. I still really like it, but probably will only use it for temporary layouts if at all. I also have some Realtrax from a couple of MTH starter sets.

Many speak highly of Fastrack switches. Ross has an excellent reputation as well. Probably can't get a better switch than Ross. Ross switches are also quite compatible with a lot of other track types. Atlas and Gargraves for a couple. Atlas switches have had some reported problems, but others report they work well. The same goes for Scaletrax. Don't know much about any other switches.

Atlas and Scaletrax is solid rail and not as loud. Atlas is nickel-silver rail and I think Scaletrax is too, but not certain about Scaletrax. I chose Atlas because it is very quiet and offers a good selection of curves and switches. I am also starting out with Atlas switches and will be following the advice of others here that have them operating well when I set them up for use. It is a little expensive, but I don't think track is the place to cut corners. I think proper track work is very important to a good layout.

Ross has the most to offer when it comes to sectional track and switches. Fastrack and Atlas may be next. I don't think Realtrax and Scaletrax have that many curve & switch selections. Gargraves has flex track which can be made to any size curve so I suppose you could say their selection is unlimited. Atlas and Scaletrax (maybe others) have flex track also, but Gargraves seems to be the standard. Flex track is supposedly harder to work with than sectional track.

With your layout being limited to 5x8, I'm not sure that all track types would work for you, but I would guess that most of them would be adaptable. Hope I didn't add further confusion for you here and didn't repeat too much of what was already posted. There are many discussions on the forums here about track types, another good place to learn more if you are interested. 

It would be interesting to see a wiring diagram for the layout. Maybe forum member Dale H will be along shortly with some assistance. He has a blog at J&C Studios with a lot of good information on wiring things like this.

I learned the hard way too. It's okay to lay out the whole floor plan when trying to decide where to put a layout, but once that decision is made, it's best to chop off the unneeded parts, just don't discard the original. I currently have 3 files going; one for the complete 2-bedroom floor plan, one for the main layout and one for the hidden yard. Now that I've finally decided on the final benchwork space, the master file includes only bedroom furniture and benchwork, no track. That lets me work on large versions of the other rooms without having to zoom, etc. Both bedroom files have 2 tracks that are locked. These 2 tracks are the ones that will pass through the wall. Locking them makes sure things will line up between the 2 rooms and I can still make changes to the track designs and even play with different track libraries.

Believe it or not, I'm also using RR-Track to redesign our backyard. I started with the 90x110 footprint of our house, driveway and existing front/backyard. The overall design is done and I'm in the process now of dividing it into 3 sections in order to tweak various elements and better define some measurements.

Glad to hear you have a better understanding of grades, etc. Next up for me is to do more with the "x" axis for better 3D views of benchwork. I also want to play with "contours" some.

The responses here have been incredible.  I really appreciate everyone's imagination and sharing what they know about the hobby.  thanks!

Atlas and Scaletrax is solid rail and not as loud. Atlas is nickel-silver rail and I think Scaletrax is too, but not certain about Scaletrax. I chose Atlas because it is very quiet and offers a good selection of curves and switches. I am also starting out with Atlas switches and will be following the advice of others here that have them operating well when I set them up for use.
from rtr12

This makes me want to go with Atlas or Scaletrax.  With all the effort it is going to take, it makes sense to get a better track.
I have tried to make the SCARM layout work with Atlas but come up short connecting 3 key areas..

The .scarm files that pro hobby and Double Daz (Dave) built are these Lionel traditional O, or one of the other tracks?  It looks like Dave has perfected the layout with his last picture post of it using RR-Track.  But is this Lionel traditional O?

I have sourced a local place that has 5x9 plywood, so I am not opposed to it being a bit bigger than 5x8 if that is going to make it work.  When I saw the layout working with 2 trains on such a manageable 5x8 size I just thought is was very poetic 

I attached my .scarm file in case anyone can help me get it to work.  It would be cool if a program like SCARM or RR-Track would allow you to convert a layout from one track brand (Lionel O) to another (Atlas or Scaletrax), and then just indicate where the problems/differences are in the conversion.

This is the first computer track layout I've ever tried to build.

From what I've read here, it can be advantageous to use flex track in place of the long straight track sections.  Perhaps using more flex track would help the pieces connect.

Cheers,

Philip

Oh so close.

Biggest problem was not using the small O36 switch extensions. To mate with the O27 loop, you need 2 on each O36 switch. Then it's just a matter of trying different size tracks to fill in the gaps.

Wow, that looks really nice Dave!  thank you.

Now I'm getting down to a parts list:

No.	Image	Number	Name	Scale	Producer	Pcs.	Note
1		6043	O‑27	O	Atlas	28
2		6050	10"	O	Atlas	39
3		6052	1.75"	O	Atlas	7
4		6053	5.5"	O	Atlas	2
5		6068	O‑36 1/4	O	Atlas	8
6		6075	LT O‑36	O	Atlas	2
7		6076	RT O‑36	O	Atlas	2
Total:						88

What else do I need? (I have the trains 

Cheers,

Philip

You're welcome. I'm actually learning quite a bit about SCARM this way.

I don't know what trains you have or what control system, so you might want to consider replacing a couple of the 10" tracks with power connecting tracks to more evenly distribute power.

If they're conventional engines, you can't just place 2 on the same track and control them individually without special wiring. Someone else will have to explain this as I'm using DCS.

If you expand to 5x9, that might free up some space for a couple of spurs, so you might then want some uncoupling tracks.

I suggest you get non-derail switches so they'll automatically switch on those loops to allow unattended running. Some brands offer manual or remote switches, so that is something else to consider. It's a rather small layout and all 4 switches are in fairly easy reach though.

I have little kids, so the trains we have to run on this layout are
1) http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00BK5MXQ8
Lionel Polar Express Remote Train Set 
2) http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00BK5MTSA
Lionel Thomas & Friends Christmas Train Set
I got both as goldbox deals   They use the newer remote control operation.

What's the best way to go about running these two trains on this layout?  Any tips on wiring or adding better/more power?

The parts list shows I only need 4 switches: Atlas 6075 and 6076, is there a Ross equivalent that is better, perhaps takes up less room?

My Home Depot doesn't have the Homasote, but if I did get cork board or something to reduce the vibration, does this go underneath the plywood?

thanks,

Philip

I figure I've already gotten my money's worth out of RR-Track, so I'm now in the bonus round. I really enjoy the simulation feature to make sure my designs do what I want them to do. That alone was worth the price IMHO. Even after I get my design done though, I'll still play around with other designs.

And, to be quite honest, I wanted a garden railroad, but "settled" for O gauge. I actually bought an N scale set 3 years ago, but decided it was just too small for me now. I didn't go with G scale for a lot of reasons, mostly the cost of track to do anything worthwhile and the summer heat here. I'm still toying with the idea of buying a G scale train if I find out non-residents can run on the layout over in Sun City Grand. I drool every year when I go over to see Dennis Sirrine's huge Garden layout.

The only way I learned some of this stuff was to follow the tutorial videos on the MTH website. I'm only through with part of them, so I'm sure there are more tips to discover. It seems kind of slow and basic in the beginning, but I think it's worth taking a day or so to build their simple layout.

I'm also thinking of using Mianne, but I'm considering under-measuring by about 3"-6" all the way around so I'll have an overhang along the walls and in the aisle. Even if I don't go with Mianne though, my benchwork framing will be modular and constructed with nuts & bolts rather than screws.

Both sets appear to be Lion Chief and as I understand that system you can run them both on same track using each separate remote to control its respective train. Just be careful not to crash them into each other Gomez Addams style.

If these are Christmas presents for the kids (guessing you have 2 kids & 1 train for each) I think I would start them out with a separate track for each one and then you could definitely use the 2 power packs, 1 on each loop of track. 

I do not have any Lion Chief sets so can't address the power on a single layout. Not sure if you can put two of these on the same track, but you probably could if you divide the track into 2 block sections. Maybe Lionel website or train manuals could help with that.

To create blocks you would isolate the center rails in 2 places, like one on one side and one on the other side about opposite of each other. Then each section could be powered separately. Please check manual before doing this, as I said I'm not at all familiar with the Lion Chief stuff and wouldn't want you to damage anything.

Also looks like you will have some Fastrack, I would give that a try to start with, before buying another type of track. It's a perfect way to start testing different track types. And if you decide you like it, you already have a start for your bigger layout.

Don't know about the Ross switches either, but some of the Atlas ones are meant to replace a section of straight track. I think Fastrack switches are well designed to fit in place of sections of their track also so everything goes together well. I'm probably not much help here.

I my area there is only one place I have found Homasote, at a real lumber yard that has been around here for 100+ years. Hope Depot has another kind that I think DoubleDAZ had mentioned, maybe Quiet Brace or something. I think it's covered with a black tar type stuff and you must paint it before handling. Homasote should be painted also. This stuff goes on top of the plywood, then roadbed on top of that, then your track. If you happen to like the fastrack (or Realtrax) it already has roadbed built in so you could just lay that on the Homasote or Quiet Brace directly. Putting a road bed of some sort under the Fastrack woule be possible I guess and may help quiet it down some if noise is a problem and you decide you like it.

Philip, I'm sorry, but now that I know what trains you have, I'm a little confused. When you got the LionChief sets, didn't they come with some O36 FasTrack ovals? Is there a reason you don't want to use that track?

I have no experience with the new LionChief stuff, so whatever I say is just what I've surmised from the posts here. Hopefully someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

The descriptions say both sets come with a terminal track as well as 8 curves and 1 straight. Therefore, even if you don't intend to use the track from the sets, I would still connect both sets of track together to form a single oval layout like the one below. I'd put both terminal tracks in (the one with the little dot next to them), but only use one initially. Notice that the terminal tracks are opposite each other and you'll only use half of the curves.

Anyway, connect a transformer to one of the terminal tracks. Place both engines on the track opposite each other.  Start 1 engine, then start the other. Hopefully, there is enough track to get both moving. If there is and they both move okay, then you'll know how to initially connect things and you'll have an idea of how things will work to control both trains on the same track. I believe it's as simple as that.

Now, if you buy different track, the terminal track might be different (or there might not even be one), so you'll have to come up with a way to attach the transformer to the track. I don't have a photo of the transformer or the terminal track, so I don't know how they connect. I assume the wire from the transformer has connectors on the end to screw to the terminal track and that might work with another brand.

My comments about Ross, etc., were before I knew what kind of trains you bought. For the size layout you are working on, I don't know if it matters too much if you just use whatever switches your brand has. I don't have any personal experience except with a lone RealTrax switch. I was just offering the general opinions I've read here. About the only switches I haven't read any complaints about are Ross, but that doesn't mean you have to buy Ross.

When it comes to sound deadening, it's in this order (top down):

track

roadbed - this can be cork, rubber or whatever.

sound deadening material - Homasote or whatever.

plywood on the bottom

Some folks don't use all of these layers. Some just lay track on plywood while others put track on carpet on plywood. Still others cut Homasote in strips with beveled edges and use it as roadbed. Others add a layer or 2 of foam to make designing in rivers, lakes, and other scenery easier. The point is two-fold; it's totally up to you and you'll gets lots of opinions. Like I've said, I'm going to experiment with track and the $10 sound deadening board from Home Depot on plywood. If that isn't quiet enough, I'll add cork or rubber roadbed. If that still doesn't work, I'll try to find some Homasote.

RTR is right, many switches are designed to simply replace a straight track, but just as many aren't and that will affect your design if they don't match standard pieces. AFAIK, Ross switches will not decrease the switch footprint. I only mentioned them because Ross has more switches to cover all kinds of design problems. I will be getting much more storage in my yard by using Ross curved switches than I would have using standard straight switches. If you think you might want to go with Ross, you'll have to see if SCARM has compatible libraries to rework the design to make sure things will still fit.

There is QuietBrace which does have tar on one side with a peel off plastic cover. HD also sells the Blue Ridge sound deadening board I mentioned, but I doubt they all carry it and I don't know if it will work. Homasote has been around for a long time and it's proven itself, so many still use it. It does need to be painted so it will resist the moisture that comes when making mountains, etc., depending on your technique.

I also agree with RTR that you might want to see how things go with the FasTrack ovals during the holidays and then see what you want to use with the design we've been working on. Like I said, you'll get tons of opinions and, quite frankly, I'm surprised more people haven't offered their opinions. I know I don't want to use RealTrax, but I've used it for a year now, so it's not a hasty decision. I'm glad now that I didn't go whole hog and buy a bunch of switches, etc., when I bought my set last Christmas. It's been frustrating not having more track, but I'll get there one day.