Help with a ZW Controller and 180 watt powerhouse, please

The handle needs to be pulled forward, not back, to be at zero . Have you tried moving the handle? It is possible the gears slipped internally, which is a common problem. The ZW (C) is likely not new in this case. If you take the unit apart, the handle can be removed and the axel reset to zero. The handle pries off with gentle leverage.

Do you have the meter installed or are you checking voltage with an external meter?

George 

More to the story. I added a second PH-1, 180 watt, so that I could try all 4 channels, and it appears B, C, and D work as advertised except A does not work right. Channel A provides full voltage from the PH-1 no matter what I do - doesn't matter which position the handle is in (full forward or full back), or if a command base is on or off, or if it is programmed for TR0, TR1, etc.

And @George S I checked the physical movement of the A lever, and everything looks solid; the pot turns full range as you advance and retard the throttle lever - does not appear to be any evidence of gears jumping or slipping.

My conclusion is that the triacs are bad on channel A. It looked like a pretty straightforward removal and replacement until I noticed all the track terminals are bolted to the board - still, hopefully not too bad. 

Anybody else ever tackle one of these? 

I’ve never had that problem nor tried that. I replaced some diodes on the meter, but those were pretty isolated. Maybe try posting on the electrical forum with pictures to get some tips?

George

I would try programming it again - check that you have brick, jumper, brick, jumper from A to D pg 6.

Check that the one handle jumper internally is in place for 4 handle operation pg.16

Zero Calibrate the handles following the bottom of pg. 14 - all handles down /Off - this is what you want to do for manual operation

See attached pages

Now what do you have?

I don't think that anyone has done any board level repair on these

Edit - check to see if it has a chip labeled S 01 when you have the cover off

I have one of those. Sad to say, but there's a reason for that "great price".

Gerry

Gerry,

Carl has some good suggestions. Mine had a calibration and starting voltage issue after I programmed it and reset it. It would start with voltage on the handle.

Also, he mentions the chip. Do you have Legacy? If so, disconnect that while you work on the ZW-C.

George

I purchased on of those long ago new and it is junk. The mother boards go bad as I remember. I am getting an interest again after. 10 plus years so am digging my stuff out. I am going to get a power master and cab one remote so I can use the 180 bricks that came with mine. I think the mother boards are long ago unavailable 

I have two of them on my layout. They are not junk. I have not had a bad motherboard. The PH 180 bricks are the most expensive and valuable part of the unit, but I use my ZW's. I have meters on mine. There are known issues with them, but for me they work fine. I would buy the new ZW-L if it had digital meters. However, with four bricks the ZW-C has more power than even the new ZW-L.

George

Unfortunately the ZWC doesn’t like “Legacy” and the “Fix” is a new chip, that is no longer available!

FREDSTRAINS

The “New” ZWL is a fantastic Unit & works well with Legacy! The Meters are Analog, but work great with Conventional, TMCC & LEGACY

FREDSTRAINS

Good discussion here on copying the chip and replacing the mosfets etc:

https://ogrforum.com/...ade-issue-for-legacy

A couple of comments: @Fredstrains I do in fact, have an older chip, a ZWC6. I was not aware the newer chip (S01) was no longer available. Not a big issue to me since I run conventional and TMCC, but who knows what the future holds?

So after reading all the very helpful suggestions (and the rest of the manual), I tried a calibration … twice … no help at all. I physically checked the potentiometer rotation of motion and it was OK. I do have the plastic pot mounting bracket instead of the newer aluminum one, but it appears to be intact, so no jumped gears. I then checked the resistance of all 4 pots. They all swung nicely from (just under) 10kohms at levers all the way back, to 0 ohms with all throttles full forward. No problem there. I then checked resistance measurements on the 4 mosfets I could easily reach. Channels B, C and D all had normal readings, but the mosfet on Channel A read 0 ohms across all terminals - bingo! IRF540 MOSFETs on their way from Digikey, $1.01ea plus shpg.

I will post an update after installing new parts - in the meantime, thanks to all that commented, and btw … do any of you have an S01 processor to sell?  I'll post that in the WTB section after I'm certain the MOSFETs do the trick

George

That's excellent sleuthing George! Please do update us on your repair.

George 

George S posted:

I have two of them on my layout. They are not junk. I have not had a bad motherboard. The PH 180 bricks are the most expensive and valuable part of the unit, but I use my ZW's. I have meters on mine. There are known issues with them, but for me they work fine. I would buy the new ZW-L if it had digital meters. However, with four bricks the ZW-C has more power than even the new ZW-L.

George

Unfortunately mine was /is junk. Motherboard ultimately failed but had handle and gearing problems and others as that was close to 20 years ago so I have forgotten a lot of the issues but I decided not to throw good money after bad. Maybe I had a lemon but I would not wish one of those on anybody. I am glad you have had good service however. Lionel just stopped providing parts and service on it in short order as I remember.I purchased a mth z4000 and never had a problem in at least 15 years. Same goes for my old postwar zw and others. The 2 bricks that came with it work fine and as previous stated will get a remote so I can use them on a new layout. The old transformers are so easy to service compared to these new ones. I fear the op will become frustrated with the controller. If he got a good  price , the bricks alone are likely worth it. He can always use those with command and legacy or conventional if desired. That’s my story and I’m sticking to it😀.

I have two ZWC transformers with 180 bricks.  One trans came with the 180 bricks, the later issue, and the other came with the 135 bricks, earlier version.  I did have to replace the plastic brackets on the earlier version with the aluminum brackets.  Was easy to do and gave a chance to check out all the internals.  That was five or six years ago and have no problems with either ZWC transformers.  Use only the 180 bricks, have total of eight.  Also have six 135 bricks for use elsewhere with the power masters, and more than one cab 1.  I use mine all the time, plus have ZWs, VW, Z, KW, etc. for other needs.  I like mine a lot and hope you do get it repaired for working properly, they are good transformers, IMHO.

Jesse   TCA  12-68275

I too hope he gets his transformer working but he needs to the know  the good and the bad (mine☹️). I hope mine was just a lemon. 

We will know in a few days - already got everything disassembled, bagged and sitting to the side so I can work on other stuff. I was hoping it would be easy to disassemble and so far, it has been. Certainly a LOT easier than disassembling my PW 275 to epoxy the core plates together. I could hear the ZW buzz throughout the house, and the missus made me get out of bed to go unplug it a couple of times!! Don't get me wrong, I love my PW ZW(s). I just have to figure out which one suits me better. 

Well, the parts came in, I installed them, did a quick calibration and everything works like a charm! I now have a VARIABLE 0-18vac on channel A, along with the other 3 channels. Parts cost around $8.00, so I'm still waaay ahead of the game.

As usual, the hardest part was reassembly, but I have a tool, a screw gripper for slotted screws on one end (extremely handy for those hard-to-start slotted screws Lionel loved to use), and a skinny, small but mighty little round magnet on the other. Where my fingers wouldn't go to add the lock washers and start the nuts, the magnet did the trick.

Anybody remember Heathkit and how they included a simple nut starter in their kits that saved the day oh-so-many times? A hollow red tube of pliable plastic, different diameters on each end to accommodate 2 different size nuts - the idea was you jam-fit the tool on top of a nut laying flat on the table, and the plastic captured the nut and provided a long, slender tool that could reach into places where you couldn't reach to get the nut started. I wonder if somebody makes those today?

On to my next project, I have PRR #421 0-8-0 switcher almost completely disassembled on my bench - just can't get enough!!

That’s fantastic! These ZW’s are very enjoyable to use. It’s great that you got a good deal and were able to fix it. I bought one cheap too and had to make a bracket to support a bell button that somebody mashed. Works like a charm now. 

Sounds like you have some good tools. I have a spring loaded plunger grabber with little claws from a PC repair kit. It will start a screw or a nut.

George

Did you take any photos for a DIY repair post - GEO?  Nice work, indeed!!

I am still hanging on to my ZW-C with spare bricks and keeping my fingers crossed 

Thank you guys! George S, I'm glad you were able to repair yours as well. Sometimes fixin' things is the best part. I am curious about your meters, are they third party add-ons, or something Lionel produced?

Carl, sorry, no pics. I literally squeezed this in between two other repairs that are in-progress and didn't take the time to document anything. It did cross my mind, but I guess I assumed the ZW-C was a low volume item, and this was a low volume occurrence, so really wouldn't be of much interest. I'll do it on the next channel that blows!!

Thanks to everyone who chimed in, still enjoying this forum! 

Here they are.

A forum member gave me one for free that didn’t work. The diodes for each of the four channels were blown. I replaced them and got the meter working. It’s Lionel part number 6-14002. They are not easy to find and can be expensive for new old stock.

George

George S posted:

Here they are.

A forum member gave me one for free that didn’t work. The diodes for each of the four channels were blown. I replaced them and got the meter working. It’s Lionel part number 6-14002. They are not easy to find and can be expensive for new old stock.

George

Yes, I see they are expensive on the used, NOS market. There seems to be a strong emphasis on the fact that these are for the "NEW" ZW's. I'm wondering if the point is that these aren't compatible with old PW ZW's (my guess), or if they're stating it's not for use with ZW-C's that have the old PIC? The latter seems a bit unlikely, since these shouldn't need to rely on any system firmware to function ... I wouldn't think.

Seems pricey for something that can be done much cheaper with some direct-from-China parts, but certainly much easier to implement!

GeoPeg posted:

George S posted:

Here they are.

A forum member gave me one for free that didn’t work. The diodes for each of the four channels were blown. I replaced them and got the meter working. It’s Lionel part number 6-14002. They are not easy to find and can be expensive for new old stock.

George

Yes, I see they are expensive on the used, NOS market. There seems to be a strong emphasis on the fact that these are for the "NEW" ZW's. I'm wondering if the point is that these aren't compatible with old PW ZW's (my guess), or if they're stating it's not for use with ZW-C's that have the old PIC? The latter seems a bit unlikely, since these shouldn't need to rely on any system firmware to function ... I wouldn't think.

Seems pricey for something that can be done much cheaper with some direct-from-China parts, but certainly much easier to implement!

There is a different meter for old ZW's. That part number is 6-14077. I also built a digital meter board with China parts, but it was not cheap. It cost me about $70 to $80 in parts and was much larger. I had to buy separate volt and amp meters and it took awhile to find the right ones. Nobody on the forum has found a combo digital volt/amp meter from China yet to measure 18 VAC. 

There is a flaw with the Lionel meter, which was discussed on the forum a few years ago. The channels for the amp meters are connected in a way that don't read the amperage accurately if you use a single common for all your channels on the layout.

George

Early on you stated that you found a bad mosfet' IRF540. You later refered to your parts coming in and replacing them. Other than the Mosfet what other parts did you replace. This has me a little confused as to what was needed to repair this unit. If you explained this I must be overlooking it.

Thank you, Forest

I use one of the old ones on an old ZW and the newer one on the ZW-C. They are handy for voltage and the current at least shows a fairly consistent reading even though it’s not exact for the circuit. 

If you’ve ever tried to find a digital AC voltmeter that reads 0-25 AC volts, you’ll realize that these Lionel meters are not expensive.

Forest posted:

Early on you stated that you found a bad mosfet' IRF540. You later refered to your parts coming in and replacing them. Other than the Mosfet what other parts did you replace. This has me a little confused as to what was needed to repair this unit. If you explained this I must be overlooking it.

Thank you, Forest

Actually Forest, I found two bad MOSFETs, both on the same channel of course, and no other defective parts. Got the MOSFETs from Digi-Key, they seem to often be the cheapest, easiest, or best-est way to go.

I often confuse folks with my words, that's either a skill or a deficit, I can't figure out which - depends on who you ask! Sorry for the confusion. 

cjack posted:

I use one of the old ones on an old ZW and the newer one on the ZW-C. They are handy for voltage and the current at least shows a fairly consistent reading even though it’s not exact for the circuit. 

If you’ve ever tried to find a digital AC voltmeter that reads 0-25 AC volts, you’ll realize that these Lionel meters are not expensive.

Actually Chuck, I'm using a $30 DVM from Craftsman - hardly a high tech toy, but it was handy at a moment when I had smoked every other meter on my bench at the time. Lowest AC range is 0-200vac, but at least when I'm in the teens it provides readings down to a tenth of a volt.

I'll probably put that on the back burner unless one just comes my way.

I should have said digital panel meter. But that brings up a question, why if DVM’s are so cheap, why aren’t there any digital ac panel voltmeters? Must not be a market for them.

I"m curious how you "smoke" your meters, I have never toasted one of my meters.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I"m curious how you "smoke" your meters, I have never toasted one of my meters.

One of them was a victim of 110vac while the meter was set on a resistance range, another had the meter (200ma max) on the current range and getting the probes across the wide open A-U terminals. On that one I started looking for the fuse, but it apparently didn't have one! Sometimes stuff just happens and it almost always involves high voltage of high current.

GeoPeg posted:

Forest posted:

Early on you stated that you found a bad mosfet' IRF540. You later refered to your parts coming in and replacing them. Other than the Mosfet what other parts did you replace. This has me a little confused as to what was needed to repair this unit. If you explained this I must be overlooking it.

Thank you, Forest

Actually Forest, I found two bad MOSFETs, both on the same channel of course, and no other defective parts. Got the MOSFETs from Digi-Key, they seem to often be the cheapest, easiest, or best-est way to go.

I often confuse folks with my words, that's either a skill or a deficit, I can't figure out which - depends on who you ask! Sorry for the confusion. 

Thank you for clarifying that.

Forest