How does the DCS remote calculate run time?

@Jerryrails posted:

I am a DCS user, but not a very smart one. I do not understand how the DCS system calculates run time versus actual running mileage. I know there is a chronometer and a "mileage" calculation but do not know how to interpret it. I am considering buying an expensive MTH Proto 3.0 loco. The owner says very low run time. What would low run time be on the DCS chronometer and mileage counter.

If the loco was displayed but not run on a powered siding, the chronometer would be high but mileage low? Yes, exactly.

Thanks for you help !

Jerry

It's actually simple. There are ONLY 2 functions- time powered (chrono) and mileage (odometer).

Time powered is literally that- how long in hours has the circuit board ever been powered. Even if sitting on a siding and not "running" that is counted as powered time.

Mileage is a function since the engine operates in scale MPH under DCS, the tachometer is then translated to odometer in scale miles.

Put another way, ignore the chrono. In my experience, that's a worthless number. The board did not age or wear out because of how long it was powered.

Odometer does matter- but a common sense engine inspection should be the stronger factor here. If you look at the wheels of an engine, the pickup rollers, and note shiny wear rings on the wheels and the pickup rollers have a lot of wear- then yeah the odometer would replicate that info but again common sense and basic 101 inspection overrides what the odometer says. I've seen engines run hard, lots of wheel slip, running without traction tires because it threw them, but might say only 1000 scale miles, well that engine has done some work and wear and tear.

For reference, at our club. Say I buy a new engine and run it today. Our club is open 12-4 or 4 hours. If I run that whole time on a layout at 45MPH, then I rack up 4x45 scale miles so one running session could be 180-250 miles. If I ran 4 days a month, that would be roughly 1000 miles.

How much "wear and tear" would that be, on 75 foot by 8 foot 0-72 minimum curve layout on Atlas 3 rail track cleaned before each session with running no more than 10 cars behind it. Again, clean, level, straight smooth high quality track, with power from a Z4000, extra circuit breakers and TVS, a TIU in passive mode and no more than 18V AC on the track, speeds limited to no faster than 60 scale MPH.

VS

Someone running a train on a dirty layout poorly maintained, rough trackage, grades, and sharper curves. Let alone pulling a bunch of die cast cars it's entire life.

2 engines could have the same chrono and odometer values, one is quite abused, the other has "high mileage" but was treated gently. One was ridden hard and put away wet.

@Vernon Barry posted:

It's actually simple. There are ONLY 2 functions- time powered (chrono) and mileage (odometer).

Time powered is literally that- how long in hours has the circuit board ever been powered. Even if sitting on a siding and not "running" that is counted as powered time.

Mileage is a function since the engine operates in scale MPH under DCS, the tachometer is then translated to odometer in scale miles.

Quick,(possibly dumb) question.

Does a DCS engine log hrs and miles when it's run conventionally, or is this strictly a feature when under DCS operation?

@RickO posted:

Quick,(possibly dumb) question.

Does a DCS engine log hrs and miles when it's run conventionally, or is this strictly a feature when under DCS operation?

Logs in conventional too. It's all just counting tachometer pulses and time (clock cycles since it has a microcontroller).

Even in a diesel but also for steam, the tachometer count speed is used for prime mover sounds. So again, tachometer is always counting as long as the engine is powered, and the chrono is just time as long as the circuit has power.

Sorry, there are more functions- example route distance (odometer) but that is just a feature to measure how long your layout or a route is. It's still always counting on the main odometer so it just like the trip odometer in a typical car.

Also, I should note that I have seen errors happen. I've seen engines- most often a cheap Railking, that had a stupidly high number of miles recorded- and yet you know, hands down know that engine could never have gone that many scale miles (no wear on wheels and rollers and they are original). It appears to be a firmware glitch or bug, where the sound file and firmware combine and while the engine responds in scale MPH- somewhere there is a math problem and the odometer is just recording a wrong value.

Odometer and chronometer cannot be changed or tampered with by the user. Even as a tech, there is no provision I am aware of to correct a board replacement to indicate previous mileage on a repair job. Consumer loader and dealer loader have no option to edit miles or hours.

Bottom line- odometer is the one I care about, but I also take with a grain of salt when evaluating buying an engine. It could be wrong, it could be missing miles on a repaired or upgraded engine (only miles on that board- not the total engine lifetime miles). It's good to know and makes you feel better about an engine, but I never didn't buy or buy an engine just because of odometer miles. It's nothing more than one indicator (out of many much more important factors) of the engine usage.

Again, I feel like somehow I missed the original question slightly.

#1 the engine and specifically the firmware in the engine, calculates, stores, and records the mileage in the engine- regardless of run in DCS or conventional it's entire life. Again, this is done right in the engine, as a part of the firmware and stored in the engine. The DCS remote or app simply queries and displays that info as reported by the engine firmware.

#2 The consumer DCS loader and even an MTH service tech with the more advanced Dealer loader, there is not a provision I am aware of to correct or change an engine's mileage and chrono hours. The values recorded are a function of the firmware and the sound file calibration of scale MPH compared to tachometer count. So it's rare, but possible in a few circumstances, the board might record incorrect total mileage. This is not a widespread problem and really other than just mentioning it is possible, should not be of concern.

Interestingly enough, I had an MTH tech tell me the exact opposite. Mileage doesn’t matter, cause MTH engines were “born to run”, but high clock time was bad, because the electronics have a finite shelf life, and every minute under power, in motion or static, is a minute closer to the electronics end of run.

@Mark V. Spadaro posted:

Interestingly enough, I had an MTH tech tell me the exact opposite. Mileage doesn’t matter, cause MTH engines were “born to run”, but high clock time was bad, because the electronics have a finite shelf life, and every minute under power, in motion or static, is a minute closer to the electronics end of run.

I tell that to someone, when I'm trying to buy an engine on the cheap and I know they don't know any better.

Oh that engnine? You don't want that. It sat on a siding and was powered but seldom run. It's all worn out.

me pointing at another engine way overpriced for the shape.

Over here, I have this million mile engine, I know the black is worn off the wheels and the rollers are worn out, but i has low hours. It's worth a lot more.

@Mark V. Spadaro posted:

Interestingly enough, I had an MTH tech tell me the exact opposite. Mileage doesn’t matter, cause MTH engines were “born to run”, but high clock time was bad, because the electronics have a finite shelf life, and every minute under power, in motion or static, is a minute closer to the electronics end of run.

Mark, IMO, your MTH Tech is wrong.  Typical MTBF times for electronic components are usually in the hundreds of thousand hours.  The race between properly designed electronics failing and well maintained mechanical parts failing is almost always won by the mechanical parts failing.  Henning's Trains had one engine that was on the outside display track running continually for many hours a day.  The PS/2 board lives to this day, but the motor was replaced a couple times, the pickup rollers a few times, and it's end came with the demise of the gearbox.

If you're running in a harsh environment, that will accelerate the demise of many electrical components, primarily stuff like capacitors.

Once again, no one really knows.

@SD60M posted:

Once again, no one really knows.

No one knows what?

@SD60M posted:

Once again, no one really knows.

Whatcha mean?…..Vernon explained it all & correctly, what did you miss?

Pat

Did not miss a thing...ol' Vern says its all about the mileage...while GRJ and another tech say its all about electronics dying.

Doesn't sound like they agree to me...sorry if you don't agree.

Wouldn't want to trust ol' Vern in a train buying/selling deal since he seems to not tell the whole truth about mileage and electronics when trying to get an engine on the cheap...or put one over on his unassuming target.

I have an older MTH F3 that sits on my layout and never leaves. It was put on the track just after I built it and the engine only had 20 minutes and 6 miles on the clock when I did so. I use it as a measurement of how much run time (hours) my layout has. Sometimes the F3 runs and sometimes not, but it's always powered on with the track. It's currently at 703 hours and 2200 miles. It's an ill-fated 5-volt variant so I'm also curious about how long it will last.

On a side note, it is possible to cheat the odometer and chronometer. If your PS2 engine has a weak battery that is unable to complete the entire shutdown process, it won't be able to update the ROM with the new miles and hours before the power runs out.  I had an engine brought to me once that had obvious signs of high wear, the battery must have worked for a while but only showed 200 miles and just over 9 hours of run time.  I let it sit on my bench track for 30 minutes, and the battery could only hold the shutdown sounds for a few seconds and it never recorded any additional runtime on the clock.

@SD60M posted:

Wouldn't want to trust ol' Vern in a train buying/selling deal since he seems to not tell the whole truth about mileage and electronics when trying to get an engine on the cheap...or put one over on his unassuming target.

The moment you lost the point.

His tech told him that in good faith and more so, he believed it as if true.

I in turn, joked, the reason someone would tell you that is to get one over on you and described exactly how it would go down.

Again, in my very first reply, I said that hours don't matter.

Further, If I post that in public- then "the ruse" doesn't work- defeatus purpose maximus.

@SD60M posted:

Did not miss a thing...ol' Vern says its all about the mileage...while GRJ and another tech say its all about electronics dying.

Doesn't sound like they agree to me...sorry if you don't agree.

Wouldn't want to trust ol' Vern in a train buying/selling deal since he seems to not tell the whole truth about mileage and electronics when trying to get an engine on the cheap...or put one over on his unassuming target.

You missed the part where John said harsh environment would accelerate electronics failing.

what Vern says about buying/ selling models has nothing to do with how the hours/miles are calculated, ……read slower, and longer to understand the information…..

Pat

@SD60M posted:

Did not miss a thing...ol' Vern says its all about the mileage...while GRJ and another tech say its all about electronics dying.

Doesn't sound like they agree to me...sorry if you don't agree.

Wouldn't want to trust ol' Vern in a train buying/selling deal since he seems to not tell the whole truth about mileage and electronics when trying to get an engine on the cheap...or put one over on his unassuming target.

I didn't see much disagreement.  I stated that the mechanical issues would be the first to sideline the locomotive, and I believe Vern stated the same thing.  The MTBF of the electronics should be far greater than the MTBF of the mechanical parts.  I thought that was obvious from the whole bit about the continuous running of the Henning's train, what was unclear about that?

Bottom line I think the mileage would be a much more germane indicator of value than the chrono readings.  As Vern correctly points out, if the board was replaced, that could change the equation.  Finally, examining the locomotive for mechanical wear is obviously necessary as a part of the evaluation.

Thanks to all of you for your replies. They are very helpful.

J

Just to throw my 0c in here. I agree totally with GRJ and what Vern wrote, the hours are not going to be the big deal with the electronics. The electronics in a train are not like a vacuum tube, where because of the way a tube operates, at high voltage and with the heat involved, it breaks down. As GRJ said, electronics in harsh environment can break down, excess heat, cold, vibration can blow them out. Likewise, as we have discussed ad infinitem, voltage spikes and high current load can damage or destroy them...but with a modicum of care and proper handling, my experience is mechanical stuff wears out faster. Think about it, take a look at cars, I keep cars a long time, I run them into the ground and the only time I ever lost an ECU was when on my very new car a couple of rodents got in and ate the wiring (it was in my garage, not being used, and we didn't realize it). The electronics on a car unless defective run forever, compare that to mechanical components.

Wow!  This is a very interesting discussion but I really must be missing something here!  I have probably had or been associated with over 100 MTH DCS engines in the last 20 years.  During that time, I have only had one mechanical failure.  During that same period, I have seen at least 15 electronic failures - a few lost sound but the majority would no longer run.  Some of those ran great and then the next day, all was lost.  In all cases, Lionel 180 watt bricks were the power source.

Just my two cents worth.

Happy railroading,

Don

@DGJONES posted:

Wow!  This is a very interesting discussion but I really must be missing something here!  I have probably had or been associated with over 100 MTH DCS engines in the last 20 years.  During that time, I have only had one mechanical failure.  During that same period, I have seen at least 15 electronic failures - a few lost sound but the majority would no longer run.  Some of those ran great and then the next day, all was lost.  In all cases, Lionel 180 watt bricks were the power source.

Just my two cents worth.

Happy railroading,

Don

Good chance those failures were the earliest models (2000 - 2005ish) with 5-volt boards. Those were known to fail prematurely due to defective capacitors sold to many manufacturers during that time.

@DGJONES posted:

During that same period, I have seen at least 15 electronic failures - a few lost sound but the majority would no longer run.

Like he said, nothing corrects for a crappy design.  The original 5V PS/2 boards were just poorly designed, and their low MTBF showed it.

I don't think the 5-volt boards were the best design either, so hard to service components to the point where you just toss the whole board. But the low MTBF is primarily due to faulty components from a supplier that sealed their fate long before assembly ever occurred. There are plenty of 5-volt boards still running today with tons of hours on them most likely because they were lucky enough to receive a good batch of capacitors.

@H1000 posted:

There are plenty of 5-volt boards still running today with tons of hours on them most likely because they were lucky enough to receive a good batch of capacitors.

The capacitors are only one element of the 5V board failures.  I agree that bad capacitors certainly were one factor.  However, they were also running many components near their max ratings in normal operation, and it didn't take much to push them over the edge.  The fairly high current consumption of the boards and the close sandwich construction likely caused accelerated failures of components inside the sandwich.  It was fairly common for diodes between the boards to fail where you can't reach them.

Almost all the capacitor failures I personally observed were one capacitor brand, WINCAP.  If I get a 5V board with those on it, I replace them on the spot.  On failed boards, I've measured the capacitance of those WINCAP brand capacitors, I've found them with as little as 20% of their rated capacitance.

I won't disagree, John, all of my 5-volt engines run pretty warmly and things are packed into those shells pretty tightly.  I think some operating environment variables also come into play such as consist size and command vs conventional operation which also helps determine the level of stress the electronics in a 5-volt board have to withstand.  Knock on wood, I have just over a dozen engines with 5-volt boards and all of them are still running to this day. I hope that the boards will last forever and maybe a few will but I know the odds are not in my favor.

This is funny to me.  First a RK board is no different than a PR board so if you imply faulty chrono numbers from RK versus PR, that it is not significant.

They have had board that go bonkers on the numbers.  At this point only MTH can change that data with reburbished boards.  Always was a hush hush thing I think.  Maybe early dealer loader could have done it, but I have never seen one.  So probably just MTH.

As far as time, while I agree with John,  which board has a higher probability of being subject to that harsh environment?  One with 1hr or one with 100hrs? Derailments, voltage spikes, over loaded, etc....  So there is a ring of truth to SD60 comment.  jmho.   G

@GGG posted:

As far as time, while I agree with John,  which board has a higher probability of being subject to that harsh environment?  One with 1hr or one with 100hrs? Derailments, voltage spikes, over loaded, etc....  So there is a ring of truth to SD60 comment.  jmho.   G

True, but if I were buying the locomotive, I'd rather have one with high clock time than tons of miles on it.  I think that was the basic question that started this thread.  No argument that having thousands of hours sitting on a powered siding isn't a great idea...

Well, I doubt you can get one with high miles and low hours  G