How to wire Ross 101's for non-derailing: Mounted turnout to turnout, as cross over with no track between.

If you wire the switch machines in parallel so that they both throw together from one controller, then the entire crossover will either be thrown straight (with both switches set straight) or to cross over (with both switches set diverging).  You don't need "non-derailing" in this case.  This, by the way, is the way crossovers on the prototype are controlled.  The two switches move together.

Below is a diagram I put together to help me wire my crossovers.  I don't know which switch machines you use, but I use DZ-2500s.  However, whether a DZ-1000 or DZ-2500 the non-derailing is the same.  In the diagram, the yellow wire is needed for non-derailing for trains going right to left on top track, left to right on bottom track.  The green wire is also used for non-derailing but not needed for a cross over since both switches should always move together; the connection to the track could be eliminated.

Bob posted:

If you wire the switch machines in parallel so that they both throw together from one controller, then the entire crossover will either be thrown straight (with both switches set straight) or to cross over (with both switches set diverging).  You don't need "non-derailing" in this case.  This, by the way, is the way crossovers on the prototype are controlled.  The two switches move together.

I understand about wiring them to switch together so that they operate together, but than was not my question.

My question is regarding how to create the dead sections required for the Non-Derailing feature, since there is no portion of track between the two turnouts.

I am assuming that the reals of the actual switches would have to be cut.

I agree with Bob. I have a double crossover, I wired each pair together to one push button and there is no need to wire them for non derailing. 

If you really want to wire for non derailing you can isolate and wire the inside rails on the switch. Just make sure the spikes are not touching by the V where two inside rails meet. I had that problem with my 100/101’s. Since you don’t have a section of track between the switches this is your only option. 

I actually do need to be concerned about Non-Derailing, as trains can run in both directions on both my inner and outer loops, so they can be heading into the switches from the turnout ends as well as the common end.

I think you are saying that, yes, I would need to cut the inside rails of the switch.
I will have to contact Steve and see what he thinks of this.

RWL posted:

I actually do need to be concerned about Non-Derailing, as trains can run in both directions on both my inner and outer loops, so they can be heading into the switches from the turnout ends as well as the common end.

I think you are saying that, yes, I would need to cut the inside rails of the switch.
I will have to contact Steve and see what he thinks of this.

My trains run in both directions as well. Your train won’t “crossover” unless you have the first switch set to go that direction. If they are wired together both switches are set to “red” so you don’t need non derailing. 

You no not need to cut any rails on the switch and I would not do that. You can just isolate the inside rails. Just use the nylon pins in the end of the inside rails. I know the instructions say to isolate a section of the track leading into the switch and while that is preferred on those switches you don’t have that option here. 

I believe you don't have to cut anything... Just put an insulating pin  on the  short out side rail that connects to the next   track  section ..  As TANNER 111 mentioned. 

(The short outside rail at the  opposite end of the switch points will become the insulated section)

RWL posted:

My question is regarding how to create the dead sections required for the Non-Derailing feature, since there is no portion of track between the two turnouts.

I am assuming that the reals of the actual switches would have to be cut.

I guess I'm not understanding.  I think you are talking about a crossover like this where both switches are wired to one controller:

Since both switches work together, Bob's is correct when he says "...then the entire crossover will either be thrown straight (with both switches set straight) or to cross over (with both switches set diverging).  You don't need "non-derailing" in this case."  In my diagram, the green wire to the track may be confusing, it is not needed and should not be there.

The way I have mine setup is if the switches are set in the crossover position, and a train comes from left to right on the top track, the non-derailing function with set the top switch to straight.  Since the switches are wired to work together, the bottom switch will also go straight.  The same with a train going right to left on the bottom track.  The only way the switches can be set back to crossover is both at the same time.  There is never any time the switches are not either both straight or both set for the crossover.  You do not need a non-derailing function between the switches.

If I'm off the mark on what you are asking, which is likely, let me know and I'll delete my posts.

 ADDED:  If you want to electrically isolate the two mainline tracks, add an insolating pin to the center rail between the switches.  This does not affect the function of the non-derailing feature.

I think I understand RWL’s question now. Sorry if I added to the confusion. If both switches are set to crossover and the train comes through the other way want non derailing to work. I would wire it the way Cappilot explained above except do not connect the green wire if you are going to use one controller for both switches. You’ll have to test that but I’m pretty sure that will work. You should not need the non derailing on the crossover rail where the green wire is connected. Assuming both switches are wired to one controller. You will also not have to cut any switch rails. 

 non-derailing works when you come into a switch from the turnout sides. So as you said you only need it to work if the switches are set to crossover and you are coming in from the other straight legs INTO the switch. 

Thus add a fiber pin at the inside of the switches straight legs creating an isolated rail and wire the green wire to the isolated rail  from the 2500C machine. Disregard the yellow wire.

Make sure the out side rails are grounded except for the isolated rail.

AlanRail posted:

 non-derailing works when you come into a switch from the turnout sides. So as you said you only need it to work if the switches are set to crossover and you are coming in from the other straight legs INTO the switch. 

Thus add a fiber pin at the inside of the switches straight legs creating an isolated rail and wire the green wire to the isolated rail  from the 2500C machine. Disregard the yellow wire.

Make sure the out side rails are grounded except for the isolated rail.

Thanks a lot for the information:

First off I will be using DZ-1000's not 2500's:

We are also discussing the Ross 100 and 101 (Regular 11)

Since you are suggesting that I need only to insulate with a fiber pin, to the next piece of track at the inside rails of the straight leg of each switch, to the next piece of track, I must assume that the Frog acts as an insulator, thus creating the insulated sections between the end of the switch and the frog.
Is this correct?

You have also suggested that, since the two switches would be wired to operate from one remote, the non-derailing feature would only require a connection to the straight legs, and that would be because I would only be entering the curved turnout of the second switch after going through the first switch, which has been triggered that direction, thus also triggering the second switch that way as well.
Again; do I have this correct?

CAPPilot posted:

RWL posted:

My question is regarding how to create the dead sections required for the Non-Derailing feature, since there is no portion of track between the two turnouts.

I am assuming that the reals of the actual switches would have to be cut.

I guess I'm not understanding.  I think you are talking about a crossover like this where both switches are wired to one controller:

Since both switches work together, Bob's is correct when he says "...then the entire crossover will either be thrown straight (with both switches set straight) or to cross over (with both switches set diverging).  You don't need "non-derailing" in this case."  In my diagram, the green wire to the track may be confusing, it is not needed and should not be there.

The way I have mine setup is if the switches are set in the crossover position, and a train comes from left to right on the top track, the non-derailing function with set the top switch to straight.  Since the switches are wired to work together, the bottom switch will also go straight.  The same with a train going right to left on the bottom track.  The only way the switches can be set back to crossover is both at the same time.  There is never any time the switches are not either both straight or both set for the crossover.  You do not need a non-derailing function between the switches.

If I'm off the mark on what you are asking, which is likely, let me know and I'll delete my posts.

 ADDED:  If you want to electrically isolate the two mainline tracks, add an insolating pin to the center rail between the switches.  This does not affect the function of the non-derailing feature.

Thanks so much for this description. You have exactly depicted, and described the situation.

Very clear, and thanks again.

If you have a delron frog yes thats isolated if you have machined aluminum frog there is a space between the inner short rail and the frog so that is isolated from the short rail too.

I returned all of my dz1000s for dz2500Cs because some of my engines hit the top of the dz1000s. And the dz2500Cs are a lot more versatile. 

Ok for the dz1000s  see below dont bother with the turnout leg.

AlanRail posted:

If you have a delron frog yes thats isolated if you have machined aluminum frog there is a space between the inner short rail and the frog so that is isolated from the short rail too.

I returned all of my dz1000s for dz2500Cs because some of my engines hit the top of the dz1000s. And the dz2500Cs are a lot more versatile. 

Ok for the dz1000s  see below dont bother with the turnout leg.

Awesome.

Thanks for all of the info.

The logic of a double crossover indicates that you would only need to wire each switch for non-derail in the through position. You could enter the through back side with the switch in the wrong position, that could cause a derail.   You can't enter the back side of the diverge in the straight/derail mode.   The wiring of a cross over pair to a single push button operating two switch motors eliminates the possibility.   Video of several cross over pairs being tested.  Mouse over, click on the triangle to access a Photobucket video.

Note that the three way switches have two switch motors. The non derail on the straight center section requires two sensor sections, one for each switch motor.  No sensing sections on any of the diverge cross over sections.