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36 replies

I'm electrically ignorant: Need to know what to tell the electrician!

H HOPPYOGR Forum Member

Okay now, I'm at the stage where I have a "blank canvas" in my basement.  I have a 13 X 21 area to work with and within that,

I am about to build my railroad.  It will be a mixture of three levels, never more than three trains running at any one time.

 

a mixture of postwar and modern, mostly modern, and with a fair number of lighted structures, some motorized accessories,

but not many.  Most of the lighted stuff, mainly Dept. 56, I will change to LED lights.  The railroad itself will encompass

about 7 X 16, an island type.  Mianne benchwork, and I will have small flourescent bulbs underneath to facilitate

maintenance.  There are two long walls on either side.  Lionel tubular will be my track.  I have a PW ZW transformer

and a KW postwar transf. as well, but the remainder I plan to power with a modern Lionel ZW. 

 

All that said, should I divide all that between several circuits from the breaker-box, as in 2 X 15 amp, or what?  3 X 15

amp???  Am I even on the right track with 15 amp?  I have two long walls to work with, so again, how many outlets

along both walls would you recommend?   I'm kinda anxious for good info here. 

 

Also, the banks of outlets will be divided along two long walls.  Thanks a million in advance for your replies!!!

Original Post

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ChugmanChugmanOGR Forum Member DIGITAL SUBSCRIBER

First, I have never heard anyone wish they had less outlets or circuits.  The more outlets you have the less extension cords you will need.  I would also have the circuits for the train layout controlled by one or more wall switches so you can turn all the layout power off or on at one time.  Multiple wall switches at opposite ends of the layout just make everything more convenient.  I would have at least two circuits maybe three.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Art

J DaddyJ DaddyOGR Forum Member

When I refinished my basement I did all the wiring myself. The 2 major concerns I found on building a layout previoulsy was:

1) overloading an existing circuit

2) using extension cords

 

But I extended my Lessons learns to the following:

 

Update  your Breaker box! Safety is key here. And if you have an outdated box. You are only asking for trouble.

 

Add an auxillary box if your breaker box is full. Don't overload existing circuits

 

Properly lable your circuit box... cannot be too anal on this one!

 

I would separate 3 circuits and make them 20 amp circuits if you can. You will be plugging in saws and vaccums these take a high current draw.

 

Separate you light circuits from your wall plug in circuits or divide your ceiling fixtures among them... then if you blow a circuit you are not left in the dark

 

Install a plug in recepticle every 6 ft. This will eliminate the need for extension cords.

 

Make sure everything is properly grounded! Espescially if you use TMCC or Legacy

 

Install ground fault protectors at the begining of the string of your plug in recepticles.

This way if a voltage surge is created say by a vacuum cleaner it will pop the breaker in the plug and not affect your transformers. I use a plug in strip as well... redundancy is good esecially if you use walwarts... these things seem to be very sensitive to voltage spikes.

 

Make sure that you ground all junction boxes, make sure they are accessible for service and draw a sketch of your wiring for LATER reference!

 

Add some dimmers for lighting affects now while you can.

 

 

 

 

 

 

A AdriaticOGR Forum Member

More is better(plugs). Bigger is better(wire,breaker) How much better a supply system would you like? Separating plugs & lights would be nice, half the lights and half the plugs split up is nice too. Ideally a plug every 6ft would keep extension cords in storage most of the time. Breaker choice should be determined by adding the requirements of everything you'd ever plug in, and use all at once, plus a decent margin of extra. Id run at least 12gauge wire, even if each breaker choice is 15amp.  

Rod StewartRod StewartOGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBERDIGITAL SUBSCRIBER

While all the above advice is good, lets not forget that your load will be 190+275=465 watts; plus maybe another 250 watts for accesories etc.

So your total of 715 watts could easily be handled by one 15 amp circuit (1725 watts).

I run two Z-4000 transformers from one 15 amp circuit and aux accessory power from a second 15 amp circuit.

I would think that two circuits as suggested would serve you well.

Plus the idea of a single master power switch is a good one IMO.

 

Rod

B bigkidOGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBER

I think it is great you are thinking ahead to the layout requirements. I don't know what the basement has right now, but I would look at it this way, step by step:

 

1)What kind of service do you have? A lot of older houses have 100 amp service, and trying to add new circuits may be problematic, depending on the load in the rest of the house. I would recommend upgrading to 200 amp service if you don't already have it (and if the box is old, might be worth getting it replaced in any event).

 

2)I agree with others, the more circuits the merrier. I would have one 15 amp branch circuit for powering the layout (the trains themselves), and another one to run auxiliary lighting on the layout, accessories and so forth. The two circuits will come in handy in construction, for example, if you have some sort of space heater if it is cold down there, and need to run a saw, the two circuits will be a blessing.....

 

A third circuit probably should be dedicated to lighting in the basement, if your basement is like the many I have seen and there is little lighting. 

 

3)If you think you will need dehumidifiers or air conditioners or the like, or especially if you want to use some sort of auxiliary electrical heating, another circuit might be a good thing to have. 

 

One person advised that outlets be GFI, but if you get an electrician to do that, these days I believe the model building code requires GFI for sub grade applications, like basements, so they will probably do it automatically, but ask them, because GFI is a nice safety feature to have.

 

One thing, while wiring like this is not particularly difficult, I would heartily recommend you stick with your plan and get an electrician to do the work. I did the wiring of some outlets and overhead lighting wiring in my basement, but they were relatively easy jobs and I have experience doing these things, but in the long run you probably are better letting a pro do it if you don't feel comfortable. 

Rod StewartRod StewartOGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBERDIGITAL SUBSCRIBER
Originally Posted by ENichter:

I was wonder the same about the wiring, I am starting to remodel the room for the layout and was planning 2 20 amp circuits for the outlets and one 15 amp for the lights. Sounds like I will be ok. Thanks

What does your electrician say about the legalities of using electrical equipment rated for 15 amp max circuit load on a 20 amp circuit?

In our local jurisdiction we are not allowed to do that.

First thing is 14 AWG wire does not meet code for 20 amp service.

 

Rod

Last edited by Rod Stewart
Mike CTMike CTOGR Forum Member

Something a little different for an electrician, when installing 2 or more circuits. Those circuit used for track and accessory power transformers should be on the same phase.

One circuit is more than enough power, if by chance more than one circuit is used for transformer power, they should be on the same phase.

Every other circuit, top to bottom, of your residential electric panel is an opposite phase.  

Last edited by Mike CT
A AdriaticOGR Forum Member

 Good point Mike CT. Learning exactly what points to test at on breaker boxes of different types/feeds properly, is a must too. What may seem "logical" for the inexperienced, may produce a false 0-voltage read. Ie, Leaving one test lead connected, while moving the other along the screws of a solid center terminal bar, on a 220 to 110 split, can yield 0v, or 110v results all due to phasing.

M MoonmanOGR Forum Member

the electrician will know what is required by code for the number of receptacles and their locations.  if it doesn't seem like enough, ask for more. 15 amp circuits are enough. You'll need a few of dedicated circuits rather than have many outlets on one circuit.

 

Have a rough idea of the layout shape and one or two possible locations for power and control to be sure you have an adequate number of receptacles in those areas.

 

Finally, consider what your lighting will eventually be to have switched circuits for those. Pots, fluorescent tubes, tracks with CFL or LED or a mix of all.

 

Oh, almost forgot, the shop or work bench area will need power. 

loco-danloco-danOGR Forum Member

Most electricians think in minimum requirements and they don't understand why you would need anything different.

Things to think about:

Especially in a basement lighting should be on its own circuit.

You should have dedicated circuits for the layout.  Keep vacuums and power tools separate.

You should figure the your max load at ~half the rated load.  Leaves margin for error.

You are building an island layout, how are your getting power to the center of the room?  Ceiling drop or raised floor?

Two 15 amp dedicated circuits should provide plenty of room to grow.  Both should be on the same "leg" of the power panel. One set of outlets on each.  Label Label Label.  A switch by the room entrance is very handy.  You want everything disconnected from power when you are not using it.

Since you are building an island layout you only need outlets every 10' around the room or where they will be convenient. At least one or two more than minimum. One very close to the entrance is convenient for the vacuum cleaner.  Not 6' from the door as minimum code says. 

Many other good ideas here.

Dan

P phillyreadingOGR Forum Member

Like Dan says most electricians think of just what will pass the code or minimum number of outlets. Usually one outlet every four feet is a good idea, even on a 15 amp run. 

For the best GFI protection you can buy GFI breakers for your breaker box, a little more expensive then an outlet style GFI but the whole circuit will have GFI.

 

I highly recommend all GFI circuits in a basement as the humidity can give you problems just like in the kitchen or bathroom area.

 

If you go for a plug-in outlet strip make sure you get a high joule rating(1600 or better).

 

From my personal experience in south Florida with electrical stuff I pull the main plug on my transformers and other train layout stuff when not in use. Here in the lightning capital you need to be extra safe.

 

Lee Fritz

DennisDennisOGR Forum Member

I have an old house so all the lighting was on existing circuits.  I added one circuit for the layout which is sufficient.  Power tools are run off my 20 amp circuit in the next room work shop, even with an extension cord if necessary.  Vacuum cleaners traditionally run off of regular household current so I don't worry about that when cleaning in the train room.

 

There is a lot of overkill advice in this hobby.  Save the money.

.....

Dennis

Last edited by Dennis
gunrunnerjohngunrunnerjohnOGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBERDIGITAL SUBSCRIBER

FWIW, I have a 12 x 24 layout with a12 foot ten track yard extension.  I have four Lionel Powerhouse 180 transformers and three smaller bricks to power switches, turntable, etc.  I post the entire layout with a single 15A circuit, and the actual measured power draw running four trains, all with smoke, and a couple more powered up but not running in the yard was less than 400 watts.  Unless you have a monster layout, you're likely to be able to power it with one 15A or 20A circuit.

shorlingshorlingOGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBER

I run my 10 x 20 layout on a single 20 amp circuit.   I have a small layout mounted 120 VAC gang box panel with a single layout ON/OFF rocker switch and a duplex GFI outlet.   Under the layout are 10 duplex 120 VAC outlets in a single gang box for prime power, I use 2 ZW's.  I also have 120 VAC under layout lighting.

I have a lot of D56 lighted by 12 VDC LEDs.   I use candelabra base LEDs which screw into the D56 provided cords.   I run the cords under they layout and simply plug them into 12 VDC power strips.   Just about all my layout lighting is LEDs.  My switch machines are 14 VAC transformer powered.  I used 28 VAC center tapped step down transformers to provide the 14 VAC.

The 120 VAC on the layout is restricted in area and not proliferated,  No extension cords here.

I used 14 AWG stranded for track power drops and 18 AWG for most everything else.  I use some smaller gauges where necessary.  My two low voltage layout control panels are hinged.  I use stranded wire to accommodate panel movement.  I use crimp spade lugs and barrier strips for interconnects.

Last edited by shorling
Gerald MarafiotiGerald MarafiotiOGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBER

Why don't you just put in 20 amp circuits ,number 12 wire ,it isn't any more work ,if  you  ever decide to get out of the hobby at least you have ample power to plug in power tools ,air conditioners ,etc & you won't have to rewire anything .In my house i don't put anything smaller than # 12 wire for outlets ,unless of course you are putting in something that requires that you need a heavier wire ,a little more money for wire ,but i think it is worth it.

H harmonyardsOGR Forum Member
@Gerald Marafioti posted:

Why don't you just put in 20 amp circuits ,number 12 wire ,it isn't any more work ,if  you  ever decide to get out of the hobby at least you have ample power to plug in power tools ,air conditioners ,etc & you won't have to rewire anything .In my house i don't put anything smaller than # 12 wire for outlets ,unless of course you are putting in something that requires that you need a heavier wire ,a little more money for wire ,but i think it is worth it.

That’s what I did, …and I never looked back,….. ….wasn’t that much more to go to 12/2 wire, 20 amp service, and the nicer, heavier quality outlets …..when it comes to something like this, buy the best and you’ll never be dissatisfied….

Pat

B bigkidOGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBER
@Rod Stewart posted:
Originally Posted by ENichter:

I was wonder the same about the wiring, I am starting to remodel the room for the layout and was planning 2 20 amp circuits for the outlets and one 15 amp for the lights. Sounds like I will be ok. Thanks

What does your electrician say about the legalities of using electrical equipment rated for 15 amp max circuit load on a 20 amp circuit?

In our local jurisdiction we are not allowed to do that.

First thing is 14 AWG wire does not meet code for 20 amp service.



Rod

Not sure I follow what you , are you saying using wire rated for 15 amp w a 20 amp breaker, like wiring the circuit with 14 gauge wire and using a 20 amp breaker?? That would be illegal. On the other hand, if a circuit is wired for 20 amps (ie 12 or 10 gauge wire), then having a 15 amp breaker would be fine, it would be overkill.

B bigkidOGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBER

I think the advice given here is good. Having the lighting on a separate circuit makes sense, and then having 2 circuits for the power makes sense. To be honest, if your box supports it, I would get the electrician to wire it for 20 AMP service. It will be more expensive (12 gauge vs 14 gauge wire, the diff in price between 20 amp breaker and a 15 is small) but not that much. I would do this especially if you will have a work bench and possibly things that draw significant current. Likely with the kind of layout you are talking about, the size and design, a single 20 amp circuit would be more than sufficient IMO.  Standard code usually says how many outlets are required (as a minimum), but I agree with others who said have them every 6' and have them available near the layout.  I would also specify heavy duty outlets whether you go 15 or 20 amp, cheap outlets caused me all kinds of grief when I did the basement, those bargain packs at home depot with like 4 in a pack are likely crap.

And the reason to have an electrician is he/she will know current code and make sure it is compliant.

Tom TeeTom TeeOGR Forum Member

Lots of very good information on this thread.

My opinion based on my experience, your mileage may vary.

A 20 amp breaker will not provide the best over all protection for loads calling for a 15 amp breaker.

Just because something will function does not mean it is right.

Rethink hand tools.  100% of all corded tools with or with out extension cords can present a trip line which can cause damage or injury.

After a trip and fall run to the emergency room I switched to battery hand tools.

Also, look at your air lines.  I use coil spring or ceiling retractable air lines.  Keep the floor clear as much as possible.

I prefer to use conduit for all under layout 110v lines and run service around the entire layout with duplex outlets in the fascia.  Outlet boxes at control stations have four receptacles.

Switch with red light at the staircase for layout shut down.

Be very careful with homes built in the mid seventies, many have aluminum wiring.

Be careful with some homes built in the first half of the last century.  The 15 amp wiring is frequently hair thin undersized.   Like having a toaster in the walls.  

Tom TeeTom TeeOGR Forum Member

Bill,

In my former shop I had multiple ceiling reels for air lines fed from a large central compressor and reels for 110 volt power.

Presently I have two contractor air compressors on dollies in the basement and a pancake portable in the heavy dust upstairs wood working area.

When looking to buy hand tools consider the Ridgid line offered at HD.  They offer a free lifetime warranty on both the tool AND the BATTERY if you register the tool within 60 days of purchase.

Extension cords and lengths of heavy duty orange airlines are now out of the way in storage.

After a serious injury I desire to keep a clear floor.

I had the Del-Air pneumatic system on my last RR however this one has over a hundred switches and the air operated system is no longer on the market so I hand throw most turnouts on my walk around RR with select locations activated by Tortoise.

As nice as the pneumatic system was I now favor the Tortoise.  Great for polarity issues.

CBQ_BillCBQ_BillOGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBER

Hi Tom @Tom Tee

Thanks for your quick & informative response.

I am currently clearing out 30 years of clutter in my basement.  

Later in the summer, a Garage Store is scheduled to epoxy seal the floor & walls of the basement.

Once that is completed, an electrician will install electrical outlets & better lighting to prepare for the layout.  Based on this & other OGR threads, my planned outlet placement is every 6 feet on the walls.  Not decided yet on light fixtures.

I have been constructing my LCCA FasTrack modules kitbashed with Mianne legs & lower cross beams in the summers of 2020 & 2021. Another kitbash to this system will be the use of Ross sectional track for quieter operation.  The initial layout will be concentric ovals with O-72 & O-84 Ross sectional curves.  Any future switches will be Ross manual versions.  

I eventually will add a Mianne lift section along with more LCCA modules.

Most of my tools are cordless DeWalt versions.  My only corded tool is a Dremel for trimming the track to specific sizes.  My portable workbench is a 3/4” plywood (reinforced with 1/2” plywood strips underneath) supported by 2 Black & Decker Workmate portable work surfaces.  I also have an additional 2 Black & Decker Workmates.

This & other OGR threads have been fantastic resources for my layout project.  I learn so much from all of you !!!

Thanks to you & all posters !!!

CB&Q Bill

Last edited by CBQ_Bill

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