Ignorant question about Lionel Lionchief DC set and accessories

At the moment, any one serious with building a 3 rail empire uses AC. DC is supplied with the starter sets as an initial cost reduction factor (and by doing so adds even more confusion into the mix). As for your crossing gates, the manual itself states "Crossing Gates operate best at 12-18 volts (AC)" and make no mention of being DC compatible.

What I found out about Lion Chief and Lion Chief Plus is that once you expand to a bigger layout, you can just power it with a normal transformer (Instead of the wall pack) and have all the accessories you want.  The ones you have in your post you do have to wire up, but you might want to consider the Lionel Crossing gates 6-12062 or 6-12052 (I have one and they work great) as they are powered by the track itself, no separate wiring and have sound .  If you are sticking with FastTrack they are so easy to setup and have a built in grade.

As an FYI, neither of the gates @Sean's Train Depot recommended state DC compatibility and the designs predate the 2013 release of LionChief which is the introduction of the DC wall warts.

FWIW   So for an experiment, I plugged my little fastrak loop to  the DC power pak that came with it.  The gates work fine with DC power.  YMMV.

TedW posted:

FWIW   So for an experiment, I plugged my little fastrak loop to  the DC power pak that came with it.  The gates work fine with DC power.  YMMV.

Great confirmation.  Thanks for testing it out.  Looks like any FastTrack item or plug an play will work with the wall pack.

@Sean's Train Depot, The DC wall wart has barely enough power to sufficiently supply a locomotive. Operating an accessory not specifically for designated for use with DC may not lead to the best longevity even if it appears to operate. Adding accessories, lighted/actuating cars, so on and so forth beyond the initial starter set are really best suited for the traditional AC transformers. You will find no one here who regrets moving from the DC wall wart to traditional AC power, but you will find the occasional case where someone accidentally ruined items by running them with the incorrect power source.

bmoran4 posted:

@Sean's Train Depot, The DC wall wart has barely enough power to sufficiently supply a locomotive. Operating an accessory not specifically for designated for use with DC may not lead to the best longevity even if it appears to operate. Adding accessories, lighted/actuating cars, so on and so forth beyond the initial starter set are really best suited for the traditional AC transformers. You will find no one here who regrets moving from the DC wall wart to traditional AC power, but you will find the occasional case where someone accidentally ruined items by running them with the incorrect power source.

Yes I said that in my post. I recommended an ac transformer,  But the original poster was just asking about crossing gates.  So that would not be an issue.   The gates will work fine with the wall pack as shown above.  Also, Lionel provides a plug and play track with the sets for an accessory.  So yes the best would be an ac transformer, but for just a set of crossing gates and nothing else the wall pack would be fine.  So one accessory is ok, more would really need an AC transformer.  

And to be clear, I was performing an experiment.  The op asked the question and we provided the information.  Now that he has that he can make his own decisions.  This is what I normally run that loop with.

bslote posted:

Hello,

I'm getting my sons a Lionel Lioncheif Pennsylvania Flyer with bluetooth set for Christmas. It won't be long before they get board with the oval, and hopefully over the next 5 years of birthdays and Christmas it'll expand to a nice layout. But being new to this, I'm a little unclear with what I need to do to get started expanding.

I get that their plug-expand-play line of accessories also operate on D/C, and would be easy. But the selection is limited.

If I want to add something like a Lionel Mainline Auto Crossing Gates set, I get that I need to add a "Lionel FasTrack Accessory Activator Pack" (Insulated and Isolated track package) to operate it when the train goes past.

https://www.lionelsupport.com/...utoCrossingGates.pdf

But I'm wondering a few things:

-Does this accessory need A/C?

-Can it be powered separately from the switch to activate it, or does using the isolated track mean it is being powered by track power?

-If activating is separate from powering, can the track remain D/C and activate it?

Basically, would I need to switch from the included D/C power supply to something like a CW-80 before adding this type of accessory?

Thank you.

After all that discussion, based on your future plans, you would just power everything from an AC transformer.  Both track and accessories.  I have the fastrack crossing gates, powered by the track which is on 18v AC which also handles all my trains ( legacy, Lion Chief, etc).  

Even though the wall pack may handle an accessory, it was really meant just for the train and small track loop, not expansion like you mention.  Also, having an AC layout let’s you run any train or accessories you like in the future. 

Hope that answers your question.

bslote posted:

...

-Can it be powered separately from the switch to activate it, or does using the isolated track mean it is being powered by track power?

I think this is the key question.  With the activation track section, you can have separate power sources for track power and accessories.  So you could have AC track, DC accessories...DC track, AC accessories...AC track, AC accessories...DC track, DC accessories. 

As pointed out above, just because the manual says to apply AC voltage, this could be historical in that the use of DC voltage in O-gauge is relatively recent.  To wit, the first thing any "modern" (this century) accessory does in its electronics is to convert the AC voltage to DC voltage!  Modern accessories use LEDs (requires DC) instead of filament bulbs for lighting.  Modern accessories use DC-motors instead of AC-motors for motion/movement/animation.   Modern accessories use semiconductor electronics (requires DC) for command/control/communications.

Separately, the O-gauge train market is a drop in the ocean compared to the computer/communications market.  The result is you will pay, say, $1 per Watt for an AC-output power brick designed for O-gauge but only, say, 10 cents per Watt for a DC-output power brick of the same Wattage designed for computers.  Plus, as illustrated in the above recycled photo from a previous OGR thread on a similar topic, a size and weight comparison of AC vs. DC fixed-voltage brick supply is palpable.  Note that the 90-Watt $10 laptop brick above has a slide-switch setting to select the voltage.  I notice you mentioned the 80-Watt CW-80 which for the topic at hand would indeed allow you to fine-tune the AC voltage as some accessories behave differently based on applied voltage.  

I use a Lionel 180 brick for power for my layout that includes TMCC, DCS, DCS WIFI and now Lionchief+ w/ Bluetooth. If you need more power just add another 180 brick. It all runs great. 

The bricks are most economic price wise also. 

Dave

SandJam posted:

TedW posted:

FWIW   So for an experiment, I plugged my little fastrak loop to  the DC power pak that came with it.  The gates work fine with DC power.  YMMV.

 

Great confirmation.  Thanks for testing it out.  Looks like any FastTrack item or plug an play will work with the wall pack.

I think you assume facts not in evidence.  While a couple of Fastrack items have been tested with DC, that doesn't extend to the whole universe of products.  They may well work, but I wouldn't assume that without verifying the fact.

The OP raises an interesting point.  If just starting out in the hobby today without the "burden" of AC voltage operation... why not a DC-only O-gauge layout?  It seems that over time, both Lionel and MTH starter sets now come with fixed-voltage DC power packs implying command-control.

So focusing on accessories as per this thread topic, I note that Lionel's Plug-Expand-Play lineup touts DC compatibility.  What surprised me was the classic Horse Corral which I thought required AC operation because of the buzzing AC vibrator-motor. 

So was this re-designed using a DC-motor with the off-center weight on the shaft?  

I just wanted to say thank you to everyone for the detailed thoughts and explanations. It seems there isn't a simple right answer, but the discussion has been really interesting and helped me understand the bounds better.

It seems clear that the simple answer is to get a CW-80 and do things the traditional way. Though I still feel that apart from the history, DC would be a better way to go for everything except operating or decoupling track and stuff like that. Maybe I'll see if I can find an old 0-30v 0-5a bench power supply before giving in and conforming.

I think the informed take away would be that virtually everything in 3 Rail O Gauge works with an AC supply such as a CW-80. Why complicate things with DC as anything that requires DC does it's own internal conversion from the AC?

If you are truly interested in DC operation in O Gauge, I would point you two the 2 rail side of things.

Well... I live in Canada, where all this stuff is a lot more expensive after the exchange rate. Used stuff too. If I can use a cheap power-supply, or reuse an old one I can find, and put it off, my 3 and 8 year olds would be a lot more happy with an accessory or another track section than a different power supply they don't see anyway...

bslote posted:

...Maybe I'll see if I can find an old 0-30v 0-5a bench power supply before giving in and conforming.

Or even a new one!  There have been several OGR threads marveling at the attractive pricing of 5A and 10A DC bench (variable output) supplies.  

If unsure about DC-compatibility of a particular accessory just ask.  As Tedw showed earlier on the crossing gate, the OGR community is very helpful.  

I  built a small 4' x 8' layout for my 5-year old grandson and still have him on DC power and FWIW can confirm that the 3 outlet plug-n-play FT section and Disney LED Lighted Station work fine on DC power and, as per the above, I suspect that all the other plug-n-play accessories will, as well.