Increased Gauge Track Power Supply Wiring...A Good Thing Or Bad Thing???

 I would say no. I run 12 gauge buss wires. Had a ZW back in the day as well as numerous Williams Crown engines. These were simple very well built engines with quality motors. I would look closely at the engine. The pick up rollers as far a being clean with no gunk on them.  Dirty wheels. The reverse unit is in the tender. Check the wiring at the tether and solder joints at the receptacle on the engine. These can fatigue with age and use.  I have had a QSI reverse unit go bad. The fact that you didn't mention an awful electrical smell when the engine died. Maybe a good thing.

The voltage and current the engine receives are a function of the  the transformer and whatever the engine needs. If the engine is to run at 18v, and the transformer is set at 18v, the engine will see the desired 18v, and the current draw will be whatever the engine needs provided that the transformer, when set at the 18v,  has the capacity to provide this current, and provided that the wire between the transformer and engine is heavy enough to not cause significant voltage drop. Remember, the voltage drop across the wire is the resistance of the wire times the current flowing through it - commonly called IR drop. There is no way that a heavier wire can increase the voltage or the current beyond the settings. Conversely, a wire that is not heavy enough and has more resistance, will have a higher IR (voltage) drop and reduce the voltage the engine receives.

Alex

PS. What is "decent gauge wire"?

Quick update on the Crown Edition Niagara. I just remembered that the e unit was in the tender. When I unhooked the connector wire to the tender and reconnected it, it did move a few feet when I tried it again. After playing around with wires, I did notice an occasional spark coming from the wire harness from the tender close to where it connects to the locomotive. The good news regarding the Niagara is it appears repairable...though I doubt I will try to put in some new harness and re-wire that myself! I guess that wire harness may have failed by mere coincidence to my wire upgrades. I still would appreciate your thoughts on the matter, especially in relation to th reliability of the locomotives with the soldered 14 gauge feeder wires. Thanks

I'm no electrician, but I can't think of any circumstance where upgrading the wiring from speaker wire to 14 GA would be a problem. I used 14 GA solid for my bus lines with power stops every 4-5 feet. Still using lock ons for now. I think you made a big improvement.

 The 14 gauge wire is fine. My only concern is that under the table is all green wiring. I might have opted for black for one of the rails. If you start changing things up in the future it's easy to get confused.

 Before you condemn the harness itself. You said you see arcing on the locomotive side where it plugs in. The receptacle on the engine has 4 pins. These are soldered to a circuit board. Make sure the pins are soldered securely to the board. When you reseated the plug. You may have moved it enough to again get a connection. If you find a loose one. Just touch it quickly with a low wattage iron and it should secure it. Just keep the tether plugged in to keep the pins in line. Contact someone who does DCS upgrades. The PS1 engines I believe had a 4 pin harness that will work if that's what you end up needing. 

 If you have another Crown Edition loco. Switch out the tenders if the draw bars are similar and see if the problem goes away or transfers to the other engine.

I have the Williams Crown Edition Niagara steamer. I have run it with a MTH Z1000 transformer and 16 gauge wiring. The engine runs great at about half throttle. The Z1000 has a maximum current output of 6 amps at around 20 volts. It is always best to use the heaviest gauge wiring especially on long runs to avoid any voltage drops. If the electronics package is defective ERR and others make systems that are great replacements. I have swapped the tender with a Williams brass Big Boy tender and found no operational differences.

Dave_C posted:

 The 14 gauge wire is fine. My only concern is that under the table is all green wiring. I might have opted for black for one of the rails. If you start changing things up in the future it's easy to get confused.

 Before you condemn the harness itself. You said you see arcing on the locomotive side where it plugs in. The receptacle on the engine has 4 pins. These are soldered to a circuit board. Make sure the pins are soldered securely to the board. When you reseated the plug. You may have moved it enough to again get a connection. If you find a loose one. Just touch it quickly with a low wattage iron and it should secure it. Just keep the tether plugged in to keep the pins in line. Contact someone who does DCS upgrades. The PS1 engines I believe had a 4 pin harness that will work if that's what you end up needing. 

 If you have another Crown Edition loco. Switch out the tenders if the draw bars are similar and see if the problem goes away or transfers to the other engine.

Hi Dave. You're right about the color. I also fed the wires through unglued electrical PVC conduit to keep everything tidy compared to wires all over the place years ago. They are all green! When I fed 4 wires through the conduit at once to avoid later jamming doing it one at a time, I had to use my volt meter to do an ohm test to wort out what wires were what...but it did indicate after checking the wires one at a time.

Sadly I lost my local train repair person. I sent stuff to the Motor Doctor before who did an incredible job. I may try him again. Knowledgeable and able repair persons living nearby are a hard trade to come by! I think I may have them (or someone else) wire me up a new harness. I will keep in mind you info on the PS1 engines. Maybe they are interchangeable. I've had issues with the wire harness and connectors on that engine before...just never like this. The sparking was definitely not good when I moved the wires with my finger. The wire leads from the tender were quite long. Years of being bunched up and making lots of turns probably ruined it over time. Maybe a whole new harness with plastic connectors can be soldered into the board and completely bypass the connector at the back of the engine. If I can get away with a $100.00 repair, that is way better than investing in a $900.00 Lionel Niagara at the moment. I used an old  school post war whistle tender with knuckle couplers on both ends behind the Niagara tender to give it a whistle. It works for what I need and is better than no sound at all!

Thanks for the info too.

I would never use speaker wire for a permanent installation. For trouble shooting & testing I guess it's ok but you did good upgrading to 14ga. At some point you may want to wrap different colour electric tape around your green wires to differentiate, say like black for common, red for track power & other colours for accessories.

I took it even 1 step further. I rewired all my leads (collector to e-unit) on all my PW O ga F3's, FM's & geeps using 14 ga stranded wire. Even Lionel recommended doing this when the FM's came out in '54. Dont know how many volts it saved but it did make a noticeable difference in performance at the longest  reaches.  Much more consistant speed & power.  I also use 12ga stranded, soldered to the track  with drops every 5' alternating the common tween the outside rails.  My  horseshoe shaped layout is only 24'X24'X24' powered by 2 PW ZW-R's and 2 PW KW's. Dont know anything about the loco you are running but it made a difference in my OLD PW engines.   You done a good thing IMHO.  Just saying. 

Rob

You can Never go wrong with a Larger Gauge Feeder Wire. !!! I had a 40' x 50' Layout! Used 12 Gauge House Wiring for my "Busses" & 14 Gauge Feeders to the track! No problems ever!!!  ......However, I used Red Wire for all "Hot" &  Black for all "Common" Feeds!  Helps a lot latter shooting any trouble on your Layout !!!

Fredstrains

Something I might add: All my Wiring (except the Busses) is "Stranded" Wire! NO Telephone Wire on my Layout, even though I  worked for them!  LOL

Fredstrains

Here an interesting (stupid?) question concerning stranded vs. solid wire.  If theres no difference between the two in capacity or performance then why does all commercial wiring e.i. 12/2- 12/3- 12/4-10/4 most always come in solid wire?  There has to be a reason. 

Rob 

oldtimer posted:

Here an interesting (stupid?) question concerning stranded vs. solid wire.  If theres no difference between the two in capacity or performance then why does all commercial wiring e.i. 12/2- 12/3- 12/4-10/4 most always come in solid wire?  There has to be a reason. 

Rob 

 

I'd say it was because the strands tend to separate out when bending the expose wire to fit over a screw for a switch or outlet. Likewise, in automotive wiring where connections are often crimped on, the strands have a tendency of separating when feeding them into the connector, causing a few strands from possibly being outside the connector (something that can cause a ground/short and potentially a fire). Granted strands that go outside of a screw or connector can easily be cut off...but it is something you don't have to worry about with solid wire. Also, there is less mess when cutting the copper ends off as one piece falls off instead of lots of little pieces. That's why I try to use solid wire wherever possible. The speaker wire I did use prior was stranded though and did have the benefit of being a pair of wires together so there were less wires to feed to their destination.

oldtimer posted:

Here an interesting (stupid?) question concerning stranded vs. solid wire.  If theres no difference between the two in capacity or performance then why does all commercial wiring e.i. 12/2- 12/3- 12/4-10/4 most always come in solid wire?  There has to be a reason. 

Rob 

 

Solid wire is cheaper to produce & more then adequate in residential & light commercial applications.

oldtimer posted:

Here an interesting (stupid?) question concerning stranded vs. solid wire.  If theres no difference between the two in capacity or performance then why does all commercial wiring e.i. 12/2- 12/3- 12/4-10/4 most always come in solid wire?  There has to be a reason. 

Rob 

 

Stranded wire is used in applications where movement or vibration may occur. It's more pliable (easily bent, flexible). Solid wire is used in more permanent structural applications that are not prone to vibration (house wiring).