Is my ZW dangerous?

Not to mention the toy train universe is kind of one of those 'small towns', if ZW's were fire hazards I think we would have heard about it, either through direct experience or lore. About the only threat of fire I could see was with people who took a 50 year old ZW out of storage and didn't replace the power cord, especially the original cloth covered cords (I just recently was given an old transformer for the 1920's as a display piece to go along with the standard gauge engine I bought at York, the cord is original.....and 'interesting' *lol*).

The ZW might not meet current standards for UL and the like, but that doesn't mean they aren't safe. Even with different attitudes towards safety, these were expensive items and made for kids as a toy (yeah, yeah, I know, they had the original lawn darts, creepy crawlers , the clatter things in the 70's that would shatter and send out shrapnel...) so I am sure they were careful even before lawyers (and common sense) prevailed.

Hey All!!!

One should actually go to the source of these "refurbished/modified" ZW's

The 3 prong plug isn't there for grounding.  The grounding prong isn't wired to anything.  Just the two regular prongs. They do this so the plug is always plugged into the outlet the same way, for phasing issues.

the third/ground prong is a dummy prong. Not connected to any wire at all.   It's still the usual two wires into the ZW.

@EscapeRocks posted:

The 3 prong plug isn't there for grounding.  The grounding prong isn't wired to anything.  Just the two regular prongs.

You would think so, but this is not the case. Here is their modification:

Hey Rob, is that the most recent version from them?

I only ask as I was going by their most recent update to what they do

Other than that I totally agree with the discussion so far regarding safety, or lack thereof, with a true grounded modification

From their tech tips on phasing:

What we do, is cut off the original plug and replace it with a 3 prong plug. Just don’t put any wires on the odd prong. then once you figure out which wire goes where, you will never have to worry about them again.

and from their "what we do":

And effective immediately:

All our ZW transformers will now come with an added power tap as shown below which will give you a constant 20V source not subject to any of the controls on the transformer.

Warrantee: We guarantee all our transformers for a minimum of 1 year. We will either repair or replace your transformer at no cost to you other than shipping cost back to us. What is not covered are broken plastic parts.

@EscapeRocks posted:

Hey Rob, is that the most recent version from them?

It is the one in question, and they won't back off from their position that this is all good.

The new modification is something completely different involving a fixed voltage post. This one is good for powering a PowerMaster or TPC, but that's about it. Like the 20 volt post(or the 6v post) on a KW, it's largely not usable.

Electrical Short Circuit | Transformers - YouTube     wrong layout

The problem with this test is that in large layout it won't trip in 3 seconds; it will melt the plastic adjacent to the short that COULD cause a fire.  Why risk it!

When newer transformers by MTH and Lionel have circuit breakers. The Z4000 has four separate circuits that should be tested.  There are two variable voltage circuits protected with fault sensing and a 12 amp breaker for each circuit.  There is a 10V and 14V fixed voltage circuit with each protected by a 4 amp breaker.

Again, the old antique ZWs are better and safer placed on a shelf in a glass case.

"They do this so the plug is always plugged into the outlet the same way, for phasing issues."  This statement illustrates a fundamental misunderstanding of the phasing concept. It is necessary to be able to reverse the plug(s) to achieve proper phasing.  Polarized plugs prevent this desirable ability.

AND...

Intentionally placing a zero impedance short-circuit across an output of any power supply to test a fuse or circuit breaker is stupid. And dangerous. And not how it's done. If you don't know how to do it, ask someone who does.

There. I have said it for the umpteenth time.

The wiring diagram for the 5D tester shows the various resistor values that Lionel used for circuit breaker testing.

@David Johnston posted:

The wiring diagram for the 5D tester shows the various resistor values that Lionel used for circuit breaker testing.

The test procedure also specifies 30 amps into a .3 ohm load should trip the breaker in 11-40 seconds to be within spec.

Opinion - Perhaps if you use simple fast blow fuses (cheap) on all of the positive terminals, the ZWs are pretty darn safe and very reliable. They will last virtually forever.

Also adding TVS diodes (1.5KKE36A) across each of your positive and negative terminals will go along way protecting train and sound control cards. If you already own a ZW, this is far cheaper than a high end transformer with a chopped wave control circuit with electronic components and ICs that will be made of unobtainium in 10 years or so once the components are deemed obsolete and no longer in production.

@AlanRail posted:

Electrical Short Circuit | Transformers - YouTube     wrong layout

The problem with this test is that in large layout it won't trip in 3 seconds; it will melt the plastic adjacent to the short that COULD cause a fire.  Why risk it!

When newer transformers by MTH and Lionel have circuit breakers. The Z4000 has four separate circuits that should be tested.  There are two variable voltage circuits protected with fault sensing and a 12 amp breaker for each circuit.  There is a 10V and 14V fixed voltage circuit with each protected by a 4 amp breaker.

Again, the old antique ZWs are better and safer placed on a shelf in a glass case.

There is nothing wrong with a ZW that has been maintained. It is pretty easy and cheap to put a fast blow fuse or breaker in line with any of the power outputs on a zw and have quick blow protection, and it won't cost you the many hundreds of dollars that current transformers will run you.  You can get a rebuilt ZW for under 100 bucks these days and fast blow breakers or fuses aren't all that much. I might add that the Z4000 isn't presently available from MTH and likely when it shows up will be well north of 700 bucks, and ones on the used market are going for a lot (I haven't seen a retailer with one in stock in a long time). The ZW-L is like 900 bucks and the other Lionel offerings aren't cheap either. There is nothing magical about the circuit breakers in the modern transformers, the only difference is they are built in. And as someone else pointed out, those modern transformers may have their own limitations, besides price, if they break may not be easy to get them repaired if at all. I like the modern transformers, would love to have a ZW-L, but doesn't mean the old ones are junk either or should be in a museum *shrug*

@bigkid posted:

Not to mention the toy train universe is kind of one of those 'small towns', if ZW's were fire hazards I think we would have heard about it, either through direct experience or lore. About the only threat of fire I could see was with people who took a 50 year old ZW out of storage and didn't replace the power cord, especially the original cloth covered cords (I just recently was given an old transformer for the 1920's as a display piece to go along with the standard gauge engine I bought at York, the cord is original.....and 'interesting' *lol*).

So just an anecdote here: my dad got me a ZW in the 70s. Have used it off and on since. It was the only power supply for seasonal layout that I put up and took down for the past dozen winters. I recently broke off a handle, so took it to local shop for repairs. Guy opened it up, said it had obvious fire damage inside, and he would not fix it and would advise to dispose the unit.  Honestly, it had worked fine for me; I had no idea. Might have been this way for years. But glad that I did not leave the unit plugged in when I left the room!

Moral of the story: get your ZW regularly serviced.

ChiBoyinLA - others

I had trouble remembering to turn off the layout with three LW transformers, even with a green pilot light on the main control panel.  I had an Outdoor Lighting timer ,normally used for Christmas lights, rated at 10 amps or 1250 watts.  I think it is mechanical and can be set for 2hr, 4 hr, 6 hr, 8 hr or photo cell.

I installed it on the one cable to my layout and normally set it for 2 hours.  So if I leave the layout on, in two hours, it will switch off.  I have to set it to 2 hours each use.  Good peace of mind.  They cost about $12 on the bay, as I just bought another one for heating pads.

Charlie

@ChiBoyinLA posted:

...he would not fix it and would advise to dispose the unit.

Oh no! These have decent value to those that find this an easy fix!  A working ZW is always salvageable.

Hey ChiBoyinLA, did that local shop who told you about the fire damage offer to dispose of the ZW transformer for you (wink)?  Did they show you the fire damaged areas - melted wires, etc?   If not, I'd try another shop to see if you get a different answer.   Some people don't want to mess with the old stuff when they've got new product they can sell you.

Dale