Issue with a Lionel Rotating Beacon (394)

I am using MTH DCS and once connected that beacon to the track forgetting track power was DC and the coil in the beacon got very hot. I didn't ruin it but added a small transformer to run it on AC. I hope you didnt do that.

No, I'm using a CW80 so that shouldn't be an issue.  I found a schematic and looks like I can pull out that rod and see if it's broken.  Haven't been able to find a replacement part but hopefully I can solder a possible break back together,  or I was thinking I could use a piece of 12 gauge solid wire in its place. 

ETA: S&W Parts had the center terminal rod in their inventory list for $1.00 a piece. So I'll swap it out and hope for the best.

With it completely unhooked from any power, remove the light bulb, use an ohmmeter across the power feed terminals... There should be a little resistance, but not much.  If the ohmmeter indicates no resistance, the coil at the top is open, ie. the wire in the coil is broken so the coil doesn't work.

Probably should ask, is the light bulb not working, or does it not rotate?

eddiem posted:

With it completely unhooked from any power, remove the light bulb, use an ohmmeter across the power feed terminals... There should be a little resistance, but not much.  If the ohmmeter indicates no resistance, the coil at the top is open, ie. the wire in the coil is broken so the coil doesn't work.

Probably should ask, is the light bulb not working, or does it not rotate?

The light bulb just isn't working in the unit. Where is the coil? Is it in the light base (394-16)?  I assumed the center terminal rod (394-17) carried the power up to the bulb, as it's registering "hot" right until I disappears into the platform, and then the socket doesn't register hot either. 

You should clarify which beacon - is this the postwar 394? If so, it uses the heat from the incandescent lamp to rotate. If it is the 494, make sure the rubber washer with feet is in good order for the vibrator motor.

Service Documents:

http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/searchcd31.htm?itm=295

http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/searchcd31.htm?itm=314

Accessory Information:

https://www.tandem-associates....l_trains_394_acc.htm

https://www.tandem-associates....l_trains_494_acc.htm

It's the 394. I've adjusted the topic accordingly.

With the 394, it appears the center rod IS the hot wire, and the metal frame is the common.

A break in the center rod would be a problem.

IF it's not actually broken, try adding a dab of solder on the center tip of the bulb.  Maybe it's not making a good connection to the flat spot on the top of the center rod.

You checked the bulb, right?

Deuce posted:

It's the 394. I've adjusted the topic accordingly.

Well there are no moving parts in that one, if the bulb lights, it's a go.

There really isn't anything to break, either. Just get power to the bulb socket & you're done. That center rod is what the bulb contacts, and it's insulated all the way down to the connection at the Fahnestock clip. The other Fahnestock clip is common to the threads in the bulb socket.  This is literally the simplest animated accessory there is.

eddiem posted:

With the 394, it appears the center rod IS the hot wire, and the metal frame is the common.

A break in the center rod would be a problem.

IF it's not actually broken, try adding a dab of solder on the center tip of the bulb.  Maybe it's not making a good connection to the flat spot on the top of the center rod.

You checked the bulb, right?

 

I did, it works. The accessory doesn't. The rod must be broken towards the top. I'll have to take it apart tonight. 

OK, so it's the 394 version.  That's the same as the one I had (still have....not in use, currently) as a kid.

It's fussy.  It's the heat from the bulb rising up through the vanes in the beacon that (should) cause it to rotate.

However...

If the bulb is not getting hot enough (high enough voltage) and the needle spindle inside the beacon top is not perfectly centered/aligned perpendicular to the top of the beacon it will disappoint.  Been there.  Experienced that.  

Other quirks?.....maybe the vanes on the beacon top are not consistently bent, too closed, too open.  After all, this thing is necessarily light in weight, unforgiving to rough handling, etc..   IOW, as Ralphie's dad said in A Christmas Story...."F-r-a-g-i-l-e!!"  Dust/dirt in the dimple on top of the bulb can inhibit free rotation of the beacon.

And the downside, of course, of jacking up the bulb voltage in an effort to create more heat is a shortening of bulb life.   Thankfully the dimpled bulbs continue to be readily available, though.  Beacon tops?...in excellent condition/manufacture?.....not so much.....at least at as reasonable a price as the bulb.

So......simple in concept?  You bet.  Reliable in performance?....not that I'd testify to.  

Which is why, I'm surmising, Lionel subsequently switched to the 494 design.....w/coil, a.k.a. vibramotor.....which has a whole different set of quirks.

Good luck.

KD

You're missing what he said. The bulb is good but does not light. There has to be a break between the rod and the bulb socket.

After getting power to the coil, be sure to replace the rubber finger washer in the beacon top piece. Its held in place by a sticky two sided washer.  Then be sure to lubricate the washer with powdered graphite. Should work like new.

Dennis LaGrua posted:

After getting power to the coil, be sure to replace the rubber finger washer in the beacon top piece. Its held in place by a sticky two sided washer.  Then be sure to lubricate the washer with powdered graphite. Should work like new.

@Dennis LaGrua, The 394 has no coil or rubber washer.

@Deuce, after getting power to the lamp socket, be sure you power the bulb hot enough and long enough for the top to freely spin as it balances on the dimpled bulb. It could take minutes before it warms up and starts spinning.Rotation is definitely is not instantaneous (Illumination is instantaneous).

The rod that goes to the bulb is one solid piece with 1 or 2 insulating washers on the top of the rod. Breakage is unlikely. It is either not touching the bottom of the bulb, or the diecast housing is not well grounded (secured) to the tower structure. You might release the rod from the base and then polish the top of the rod in case there is any built up corrosion acting as an insulator.

Chuck Sartor posted:

You might release the rod from the base and then polish the top of the rod in case there is any built up corrosion acting as an insulator.

Thank you.

  So, the bulb lights? Dont always trust continuity reading alone on a bulb, the elements can be tricky, e.g., beaking contact only under load. Put voltage to the bulb.

   If you read off rod tip to tip you should have continuity or it could be the connection of the clip at the bottom as well if you were reading off that or the wire. Id say that rod being clean is the #1 suspect.  (If you read off the rod vs clip that is)

  But just to rule out any shorts; bulb out, look for continuty between base and rod. If there is continuity, there is a short. Shorts don't always act as we might anticipate. A voltage search might give you zero one place and normal another (assumes you have an ohm meter). The short might be easier for electricity to cross than the meter, all the power seeks the easy return via the short, and the meter might read 0 . (beware of 220 three phase zero readings unless you understand it too)

A shorted rod is my #2 guess. Bent? Rubbing?  The insulating washer might be letting it hit, or has shrunk in thickness ? . And an insulation sheet is under the bottom clip., look for wear in it.   Look for scratches on the rod from the clip teeth at a former postion, etc., Is it higher? If the bases top has an oil canned /dome look, I would wonder about the socket too. Look at the bulb base. Is the soft tip crushed? Screwing bulbs too tight can blunt it, round out a socket pad, or bow a socket bottom out over time. Overtightening/pulling on the rod could round out a bottom too (though I'm not recalling how much support, if any, was there from the housing, etc.)

As a side question: has anyone ever gotten one of the reproduction 394 beacon tops to actually rotate?  The only success I've had is with NOS originals - those little vanes to convert the heated air into circular motion are in my experience almost comically delicate and sensitive.

The newest version of tops available from Train Tender seem to work OK. They are lightweight and the vents are formed properly. Not quite as light as an original, but close. I have found if you use 16 volts in stead of 14 volts on the China made dimple bulbs, they seem to generate enough heat.

I think DEUCE'S last post is saying he solved the  problem.

bmoran4 posted:

Dennis LaGrua posted:

After getting power to the coil, be sure to replace the rubber finger washer in the beacon top piece. Its held in place by a sticky two sided washer.  Then be sure to lubricate the washer with powdered graphite. Should work like new.

@Dennis LaGrua, The 394 has no coil or rubber washer.

@Deuce, after getting power to the lamp socket, be sure you power the bulb hot enough and long enough for the top to freely spin as it balances on the dimpled bulb. It could take minutes before it warms up and starts spinning.Rotation is definitely is not instantaneous (Illumination is instantaneous).

Oops now we are really going back. The only Lionel beacons that I've ever seen where of the vibrator type. I guess early Lionel beacons used the dimple bulbs like Marx did. On a layout with 4 or 5 trains running the vibration may be detrimental to action of the heat propelled beacons but having never run one, its just my guess,