Kline/Lionel SP GS-4 Daylight... Thoughts?

Chris, there was a thread about the Daylights very recently and a poster near the end talked about his K-Line model and had a coupe of good shots of it.

I think he had high praise and called it the best semi-scale GS4 ever....

Thanks Sam

I've had a K-Liine GS-4 with 7 of their 15" heavyweights for years and it is a pretty sweet loco. Just pulling all those heavy cars is pretty amazing and around my O36 Super O curves it is impressive. The detail on the engine and tender are pretty accurate it is the best of the semi-scales, the rest are based on N&W J castings.  The tender is a gem and the railsounds are GS-4 specific. The tender trucks even say "Buckeye" on them It has a pretty decent puffing smoke unit with 1 puff per rev. Now the downsides. 1 Chuff per wheel revolution! The wheels are too small and the valve gear is wrong, but you really don't see that when the loco is moving and it does move pretty good.

Neil

In addition to the running gear being based off a N&W "J" I think the Daylight colors on it are a bit off as I recall based on seeing it a long time ago.  The red seemed to be a bit too dark, although again it's been a while since I saw one in person.

The Lionel scale GS4 is nice but is not without its own errors; the undersized main connecting rods and the Daylight fireball logo on the side skirting on the fireman's side being in the wrong location are a couple of examples, but I agree that it has very impressive sounds.

Chris,

I put the K-line AFT GS-4 next to the recent Lionel Legacy GS-6 as they where both in the shop at the same time late last year and the K-line unit is sweet, but about an inch or so shorter than its scale counterpart. 

I didn't look at the running gear, never crossed my mind, I know the Lionel semi-scale is "J" based but the K-line? They are both buried in my storage unit and out of reach now.

I too am curious about the K-line model being "J based" as many have said. Since K-line never made a J Class would there be a reason why the loco is "J based"? Is it the frame that people feel is based on a "J"?

No one ever said the K-Line Daylight was based on the J. Every other "semi-scale" version (by Lionel and Williams), has been, however.

The K-Line Daylight was based 98.26% on the prototype GS-4 Daylight. While smaller than scale, and with a couple proportion issues necessary for its semi-scale existence, the model is without doubt the best, most detailed semi-scale Daylight out there. The detaling is very impressive for a locomotive of its size, with many, many added on parts. The roof hatch opens, and the tiny doors at the back of the cab, which are hinged, are held shut by one of the tiniest hook latches you'll ever see. The cab doors open, and the interior is detailed. The tender, as mentioned, is also meticulously detailed with added detail parts and railings. The trucks have real springs (but aren't technically "sprung"). It's got a backup light and working markers.

The MARS light is cool to watch, and each number board on the nose is indivdually lighted (the number boards on the skyline casing, however, are not lighted). There is firebox glow. This engine probably has more working lighting features than many "scale" engines.

The driver diameters and wheelbase of the engine is identical to the milimeter to the Lionel post war 726/736, which was a neat design decision.

The sounds are a little rough, but not bad--maybe Lionel has improved them? Smoke was OK.

Anyway, if you're looking for a SEMI-SCALE Daylight, this is really the only one I personally would consider.

But what about the cross heads & cross head guides?

Steve, thank you for clarifying. I agree, for semi-scale, K-line is the way to go. Besides it looks scale unless parked next to a scale one.

I wonder who has that tooling?

Steve, look again on your K-Line GS-4.  Pay particular close attention to the valve gear.  Look at the crosshead arms and valve stem guides and compare it to the J.  Then look at it compared to the prototype or scale model of a GS-4.

There you will see why it resembles the J more than it does the GS-4.

Thanks for the reply. There has been misinformation in other threads which alluded that the K-line model did indeed have running gear based on the J. I was pretty sure this wasn't the case, but since the same model was released by Lionel under the K-line By Lionel banner there seemed to be a lot of confusion. Thank you for the clarification.

Guys,

Read the subsequent posts Hot Water and myself made in response to Steve's (smd4) post above.

The key spotting feature that suggests it's based on the J is because of the crosshead arms and valve stem guides.   K-line's more resembles a J than the GS-4.  That's where the reference comes from; it's not misinformation.

I don't know what "misinformation" you are referring to, but the running gear on the K-Line SP GS-4 model is MUCH more representative of an N&W "J" than an SP "GS" Class 4-8-4!

I have to say that being a  K-Line fanatic, that I think it's wonderful that the line is still so relevant so long after their demise.

So...because the crosshead and the valve gear are different (and it's not just the J that uses Alligator crossheads and Baker valve gear, BTW), means that the engine is based on the J??

C'mon!! That's plain silly. Yes, the crosshead and valve gear is incorrect. It's a SEMI-SCALE engine, for cripes sake, and there are compromises!

Looks like 1 chuff and no cruise, sounds not bad.

Steve, the "J" references that have always been made were specifically regarding the running gear on the K-Line model, not the entire locomotive itself.  And you did in fact make the comment in an earlier post saying that the K-Line model was "100% based" on the real GS-4.

For reference, here's some comparison pictures below with the crossheads and valve guides circled in read so people understand why the K-Line running gear is compared against the "J".

K-Line GS-4:

Lionel Scale Norfolk & Western "J"

Williams Scale GS-4:

Hope that this all helps make the "J" running gear in reference to the K-Line models more clear.

OK, I'll agree with that. But earlier you posted, "The K-Line Daylight was based 100% on the prototype GS-4 Daylight.", which is confusing to those folks not familiar with the obvious visual differences.

I was mostly referring to the actual design of the boiler shell.

But serioulsy--I've never ever heard anyone use a crosshead guide and valve gear as "spotting features" of a locomotive. I mean, how do you know the running gear wasn't designed around another engine??

OK--I've edited my reply.

Stands out like a sore thumb to me.  And no one ever suggested that design of running gear wasn't used on other locomotives; the "J" was only used as it's a Northern just like the GS-4, and the J is the most obvious and easily recognized by O gauge enthusiasts as a point of reference.

OK, but what other 4-8-4s have the Alligator cross head & guide arrangement, especially in the O Gauge 3-Rail market?

Same here. I wish it had the Laird and Walshearts. But lots of things about the engine stand out too--the fact that the stack doesn't line up with the cylinders, or that the side skirt doesn't taper, or that the color bands on the tender are incorrect because they needed to match the smaller proportioned engine. But I still take it all with a grain of salt because it's a SEMI SCALE engine!

The fact that the crosshead guide and what can be seen of the valve gear appear to be those of a J (or some other prototype engine that used the same arrangement) doesn't really take away from the fact that the vast majority of the locomotive was specifically based on the Daylight.

Well luckily for me someone else bought it so I don't have to worry how it will look

Geese Chris, all that trouble for nothin!

I know, guess the 70% off was too hard to resist for some.

Boys, boys these still are toy right!!!!!

One thing not mentioned in this thread is the Kline by Lionel GS-4 version from 2007. I have not seen one but I believe they have a fan driven smoke unit and probably have more chuffs. They also have brass builders plates. Does anyone have one?

It is ironic that Lionel used the wrong valve gear on its "746" J back in 1957 and Kline did the same thing with the GS-4.

Neil

Ahhh, the catch all response!

Um, maybe YOURS are. Mostly what I have are models. Some more faithful than others.

Clearly some take their toys more seriously than others.

Ok, I retract my response.  Did not mean to offend anyone.  Again sorry.  Jim R.

And your point is...?

The point is...if they are not toys (albiet expensive ones and even if they're called "models.")...what are they?  Maybe someone could explain what exactly they are so that we won't use this "catch phrase."

If you like to play "toy trains," then fine. You can use the terms on yourself. But PLEASE don't foist the term on those of us who consider ourselves model railroaders. We wouldn't do that to you.

Foist, nice but the 3 rail scale portion of the forum is in another area.  Did not think many would be so touchy about what was never to be taken in a bad way, but there you go.  I do love my trains and I do play with them or what ever makes you feel better to call it.  I hope all continue to enjoy our great hobby inspite of individual attitudes and the like.

I agree. Where did you read anything that even suggested something like this?

Hi All,

Since you fellas are really gettin' down to comparing nuts & bolts on these locomotives I have to ask a question or two.

I've been contemplating the purchase of an SP GS-4 Daylight and coaches and wondering which manufacturer is or has produced the most realistic model. 

The questions I have would be:

-Which Mfg is closest to prototype and why.

-Best color match of loco to coaches within or between manufacturers

-Best sounds including bell, whistle AND HORN

-Best smoker

-Availability on secondary market for all pieces that would look good together.

Lastly, anyone have the latest 3rd Rail release of the GS-4 and what are your thoughts on it?

Thanks in advance for any and all advice!

Best,

Dave