Latest 'The Train Collectors Quarterly'

Sounds interesting. I will have to read it when it comes, thanks!

Yes, does sound interesting.  

Some compain about the TCA and how it has little to offer, but for me I really enjoy the Quaterly and most of the time read it cover to cover.

http://tcaetrain.org/articles/...es/pursuit/index.htm

This TCA e-train article mentions set 407 which sold for $350 in 1931.

It is hard to imagine paying $350 for trains during the Great Depression.  I guess that is why so few sold.  There were many extras offered in this set: Hellsgate Bridge,operating cars,track,switches,station,transformers,crossing gates,signals,transformers,rheostats,bumpers,tools,#195 Terrace,lockons and more.

In today's market is it safe to say that this would be priced at around $5000?

Can you imagine the set boxes for this set?  Not all of them survived,I guess.

Norm 

The more I think about this, the more excited I am about getting my TCA Quarterly.

Then I think, I would have probably saved the extra $35 and bought a new Model A Roadster instead!

  The benchmark I use to assess the cost of something from the 1930's is my Father's first paycheck.  In 1938 he began work as a teacher and the pay was $75/month.  So , even if the set had been available in 1938 and at the same price, it would have still amounted to almost 5 months wages.

  By the way, not to hijack this thread, but there is also a great article in the latest Q on a presentation AF Zephyr set - all in all it's a great April issue.

Two years into the Depression.....$350.00 was big bucks on the bread lines.  I need to

check and see what a new six cylinder 1931 Chevrolet would have cost, and then to

see how many makes of cars $500 would have bought.  Dunno if you could have gotten

one of Billy Durant's Stars for that $350, although I think Stars were all rebadged as Durants in this, their next to last year.  I am sure the number if makes, if I do this

research, will depress me.

It's a great article.......

Peter

Great article...Does anybody know the size of that layout?

Jeff Davis

Using my magnifying glass:

8 switches,2 bumpers,47 straight track,20 curved track,2 half straights,and 16 lockons were part of this set.  With 2 switches, I counted 26 more straight tracks on the outside loop and a total of 24 straights on the inside loops plus 6 switches.  I had a hard time figuring out where the 1/2 sections were used.  My count may be off by a couple. 

It looks like the outside length of track equals the length of the State Set.

Norm

A couple of other mile stones to give perspective to price. 1967, the year I graduated high school.  Minimum wage is $1.40, first job, away from the farm, was 1.65/hr.  College graduate (4year later) 1971. Teacher salary was $7,100/year.  My guess at $350 in 1930 would have been a years earnings.  My grandfather a dentist, fresh from Pitt Dental School, 1930's struggled. He was still collecting bills into the 1960's. Never turned anyone away.   These little blimps, remind me of so much we take for granted. 

Thanks Norm, great way to start the day. 

 Mike CT  

Thanks for posting this. I enjoy the TCQ very much. Of special interest to me in this issue is the article about the HO tin lithographed equipment made by the Japanese company Nomura. A friend of mine purchased a passenger set in very nice condition and I'm happy to have found information which I can pass along to the owner. I even found this video about Nomura trains on YouTube:

Bob 

Thanks for posting that video! I have a Nomura set with the box, which is unmarked. They are B&O locos, powered and dummy and three cars. The loco works but I never set it up. Now I will! I have the time, since I broke my ankle and am limited in what I can do, being on crutches. Nice stuff! 

Hi, this is Dr. Martin Folb from Los Angeles, and I just received a note from Mark Boyd regarding some responses about my article in the TCA QUARTERLY. In order to insure the smooth operation of the display, I decided to re-design it using wide radius track & switches. As you will see in a note that will appear in the next "Drumhead", I wrote the following:

"I very much enjoyed seeing my article published in the April 2015 TCA Quarterly, and have received many very nice comments from people who have read it. These historical “re-enactments” of some of Lionel’s greatest outfits, give us a perspective on what the fortunate recipients must have experienced on that special Christmas morning over eight decades ago! It truly was a “DREAM OF DREAMS”

I wanted to correct two very minor mistakes in the article. First, the catalog illustrated was a 1930 issue, not a 1931. The 407E outfit was essentially the same both years, but the major difference was that in 1930 it featured a 390E & T, while in 1931 (its last year) the new flagship of Lionel, the 400E & T, was the motive power for the Work train. This was the 1931 outfit.

The track design was a faithful emulation of what was shown in the 1931 catalog, the only difference being that the curves were replaced with 72” Wide Radius track, and the switches were also wide radius. I am absolutely convinced that if the Depression had not occurred until the mid 1930’s, Lionel would have introduced Wide radius track for these now larger locomotives and cars. They did introduce Wide radius “O” gauge in 1934 for their streamliners, but by then the party was well over for Standard Gauge! It is also interesting to note, that if the 407E was configured exactly as shown in the catalog with standard radius track, the Brown State set and the 400E work train were forever doomed to stay in their respective loops! Only the very small Lionel passenger cars or some freight cars could navigate the two switches, set up in an “S” curve to transition from the outside to the inside!!

With regards to the operation of these trains, I very much enjoyed Larry Archer’s note about the 381E that was sitting on a 408/402 frame in the photo from the Christmas issue. I contacted Ed Eberl, the man whose grandfather set up this layout. He told me: “I’m not surprised that my grandfather would have modified things, it runs in the family”. You have to do some major modifications to put a 381E cab on the 408 frame, so it was obviously something that a service station would not have done.

Finally, there has always been an “URBAN LEGEND” that the State Green 408E was produced to placate owners unhappy with the performance of a 381E and 4 State cars. If the locomotive is serviced properly and the cars are well lubricated, the train will run reasonably well. It will perform a great deal better with the 72” Wide Radius track. If you purchased a 411E set in 1929 (the only year that the 381E was offered with 4 State Cars), the set would have included 8 curved and 16 straight sections. If no additional track was purchased, and the track that came in the set was set up as an oval (8 straights on each side and 4 curve on each end), the 8 straight pieces would span 112 inches. The train itself was 108 inches in length, so the set would barely be on the straightaway before it had to negotiate a 180° narrow radius curve! Anything less than perfection in the trains performance, would have doomed the proper operation of this very expensive ($110 in 1929) set!"

The original layout was 12' X 11', and the Wide Radius version was 16'9" Square.

This is a computer generated image of the plan that was executed. It retained exactly the same geometry as the original 1931 Layout. As I mention in the "Drumhead" response, these large trains could have NEVER negotiated the S curves shown in the layout! 

The layout was a bit spread out with the wider radius track, but still was quite extraordinary. It would have helped if we could have displayed it on something other than a large black set of platforms!

One of the questions was: "What would $350 equate to in todays money?" I can give you a very good estimate based on sound quantitative analysis. Historically, in normal economic times, inflation doubles prices every 10 years. If we take the $350 in 1931, then 84 years later, we have gone through 8.4 cycles. $350 x 2 to the 8.4 power= $118,228!! This does not even take into account the rarity or art aspects of these items! I can assure you, that if any of you have a mint, boxed, complete 407E set out there, I will gladly pay you $120,000 for it!!!

Here are two photos of the actual display as we set it up:

This was the Sequel to the 2013 Exhibit at Cal-Stewart, "LIONEL STANDARD GAUGE-THE GATSBY ERA". Here are four photos from that exhibit. All of the trains you see on display are like new or better and most with original boxes!

i

It was a tremendous effort putting both "Gatsby" displays together, but for many people they were able to see these extraordinary trains looking at they must have over eight decades ago!

Dr. Folb.

All that I can say is,Wow!  Thanks for your response.

Norm

I do not know why the crossovers were setup with left left and right right.

They could have been done with one switch as part of the curve using a left right configuration.

see attachment. no S curves.

I was a little confused by F&G RY's use of the word "CROSSOVER"-lol! To me, a crossover is either something like a Lionel 20X (45° or a Lionel 20 (90°. I just call them "SWITCHES" or another term that is used is "TURNOUT". In any case, I am sure that there were many other possibilities for how this layout could have been designed by Lionel in 1931, but this is what they went with and what we emulated in the "DREAM OF DREAMS" display. I was curious after looking at F&G's photo (I assume this chap has an actual name- I hate to keep calling him F&G-lol), if the 407E could have been reconfigured to avoid the "S" curve. So, I did a re-design using 42" Track and switches which is how the layout was configured in 1931. Here is the result with a parts list:

Here is a link to the "DREAM OF DREAMS" Layout in operation at the 2014 Cal-Stewart Meet: https://drive.google.com/file/...Wm8/view?usp=sharing

Now, if you study either this plan or the original 1931 design, you notice that there is NO WAY to reverse the direction of the train! I came up with a "permutation" that still maintains the original look, but allows for reversing direction. This one is created with all Wide radius (72") track. Here it is:

The most fascinating design is yet to come. I have a copy of a 1933 Lionel Blueprint that was intended to be used for some type of Dealer Display, although I don't believe it was ever actually done. Here are a few photos of the Print, obviously with 42" curves and switches.

I thought this was one of the most fascinating designs I had ever seen, so I decided to try and reconfigure it for Wide Radius. Here was the first incarnation of that design:

The train would reverse direction once inside, but once it exits to the outside it would be going in its original direction. So, the next diagram, shows it with true reversing capabilities:

This design was fantastic, but a bit too wide for the room I wanted to set it up in (temporarily)! However, here is a simulation video to show how it would work:

The final design for the room was the following; made it a bit smaller but kept the reverse capability.

and a 3D View:

After all of this, here are some actual photos of this layout, and a video (not the best-didn't have my new Nikon D4S at the time to shoot a more professional quality).

If you would like to see this in operation, go to this link: https://drive.google.com/file/...T0U/view?usp=sharing

I have had a great deal of fun setting all of this up, and seeing these trains in operation; I refer to them as "MOVING SCULPTURE"! No one is as obsessed with condition collecting anymore than I am, but if you are careful you can enjoy the operational beauty of these trains as well as their "aesthetic" qualities. There are many high end collectors, with fine collections, that have relegated their trains to the status of "SHELF QUEENS"! I feel that if the Nethercutt Museum in Los Angeles is willing to take this car out on the highway- The Duesenberg "20 Grand"- worth probably $30,000,000, I can run a $100,000 train set!!

I don't think I would ever want a permanent layout; I know how my mind works, I get bored easily and am always looking for new challenges (it's the Physicist in me) and love the notion of designing and re-creating some of the wonderful layouts shown in the Lionel Magazine. I would have a large surface available, and every 6 months or so use my "Palette" to start a new creation. I hope you all have fun looking at these photo and videos.

Dr. Folb,

Amazing stuff.  I think that it would be possible to run 3 trains on this layout.

Maybe not classical tinplate,but the latest PS3.  That would be real fun.

Norm

Hi Norm, what I like about all of these designs is that in order to achieve the reversal of direction or get the train to move from one loop or configuration to the other, the kid at the controls has to think ahead! The operative word here is THINK!

There are several ways of finding a persons real name on this forum. The first place to look, is the signature line. Mine is Jim C.. Following that one can click on F&G Ry which is the name of my model railroad. It stands for Ferncliff and Greenpoint Avenues the street corner I live on. Anyway clicking on my screen name will bring you to information about myself. One thing is my e-mail address jcottzolla@ verizon.net. It is not a great leap to realize my real name is Jim Cottzolla. I also have a avatar with a photo of myself.

In railroad terms a crossover allows a train to change from one line to another. In the track plan I posted a train is allowed to cross from the 84 mainline to the 72 mainline and vice versa. My approach allowed me to make the crossover without a S curve. Today Ross makes a #4 turnout which allows crossing between two mainlines on a straight away without a S curve.

The 20X and 90 degree crossovers are really crossings.

I think it is just a matter of how we get used to the names of these devices. I have always called them "crossovers", the catalog calls them "crossings"! lol The most important thing is how they add to the excitement of the layout. I have never had any desire to build a layout to scale; I prefer the "toy" look, and the more tinplate looking and non-realistic it looks, the better I like it!

Everyone that saw both of these layouts was as excited as I was to see them in operation; the "DREAM OF DREAMS" display, which was done at the Cal-Stewart meet, fascinated everyone as you don't often get a chance to see trains of this caliber in operation. It was fun for me too! BTW, I am fairly new to this site, but no matter where I click I never did see your email address. I did miss your name, Jim C., when I first saw your post. It's much easier to call you Jim then F&G RY!! lol

I had a blast when I set up the 1933 modified design at the house. I belong to a group here in Los Angeles that meets once a month at each others homes to run trains. I had the doors to the dining room closed, but all of the accessory lights on. I told the group to imagine this scenario; it is Christmas morning, 1932, you live at 640 5th Ave. in New York City, and your last name is VANDERBILT! Your father and the butler have worked all night to set this up for Christmas morning, and this is the result!! I was paid a real compliment by the teenage son of one of our group, who upon seeing the layout in the dining room, told me it was really SICK! (Translation: AWESOME, COOL)

Click on any forum members screen name and you will go to another page. The left side shows the members previous posts.

The right side has a column under the advertisements there is "extended profile". This is where members can tell more about themselves. Giving a personal e-mail address is optional. I posted one many do not.

Most importantly, did you enjoy the photos, videos and other material in my posting??

enjoyed them very much. thankyou for posting.

I am glad to hear that! That is what it should all be about!

That "20 Grand" Duesenberg ain't half bad either! 

 Glad to see someone has sense enough to run his trains for enjoyment rather than let them sit on a shelf.

  In my opinion, better to run them to death than rot while sitting there looking pretty. The expense is your business alone.

The posts were all very interesting. 

Thank you (ADRIATIC) for your nice thoughts. As I mentioned before, I regard these trains as "MOVING SCULPTURE" and in that mindset I think they must "MOVE"! As I only collect Standard Gauge Trains in absolutely premium condition (most with original boxes), I also feel a responsibility to maintain them in that condition and preserve them for future generations. I neither want to run them to death or let them rot on a shelf , but rather achieve the best of both possible scenarios! I think I would refer to it as "conscious curating", where I maintain their elegant and pristine condition and at the same time enjoy their equally appealing status as "mechanical art"! These extraordinary trains are finally achieving a place in the World of collecting that they so rightfully deserve. While not quite ready to achieve the stratospheric prices of a Gustav Klimt painting of Adele Bloch Bauer ($135,000,000) or a Picasso- “Les femmes d'Alger (Version ‘O&rsquo” ($179,400,000), they have been noticed by as prestigious a publication as The Robb Report. I am enclosing some scans from an article that was done about one of my acquisitions, The 20th Century Limited (Lionel Set #433E), as well as a few other collectors including Ward Kimball (who was a good friend of mine).  

Martin,

Really enjoyed your post about the layout you setup and the video of that gorgeous State set running.  Thank you!

I'm glad you enjoyed seeing it. When I shot the video, it was the day after I hosted the get-together and I was all alone in the room watching the trains run. I was completely isolated from the rest of the World and I must say it was DELIGHTFUL (as Teddy Roosevelt used to say)! I should add one interesting point which reinforces the great and lasting quality of these Lionel Standard Gauge Trains. I had placed a little clear tape on the sides of the 45° crossover center frog as sometimes a wheel from one of the cars, that had a little extra side to side motion, would short out as it contacted it. I inadvertently got a little extra tape on the top surface, and didn't realize it until the State set stopped while on the crossover! I wondered how this could happen since the 408E has two motors and obviously two sets of pickups. Believe it or not, the motor that did not have the E-unit somehow had gotten disconnected and was NOT EVEN RUNNING!! So, the other motor was dragging along a DEAD MOTOR and FOUR BROWN STATE CARS!! So much for the theory that a 381E could not pull 4 cars!! I fixed the problem and it really took off! BTW, in that video shown here, it is running with just the one motor!!!

I am including a link to one more video. As I mentioned previously, I belong to a group that try's to meet once a month to operate trains at different member's homes. This video was shot at the home of Jim Kurten, an early TCA member who was 97 when we shot this. Jim almost made it 100, passing away at 99! I had just acquired an absolutely new in the box Mojave 408E set, and we decided to hook up that locomotive, my State Green 408E and Apple Green 408E with 7 of the passenger cars including several of my Dark Green ones that came in a boxed 348E set (weighted 380E with 428,29,30). As you can see, it ran flawlessly and keep in mind that all of these cars are LIKE NEW ORIGINAL PIECES!! Here is the link to the video:https://drive.google.com/file/...clE/view?usp=sharing

Norm,

   Thanks for starting this really nice thread, fantastic information on a great layout.

I have to admit Steve is correct about the oval all visual effect of the large layout however.

PCRR/Dave

If you go to the internet you will find the US Government CPI inflation calculator. 

$100 in 1931 would be worth $1556 in 2015 after inflation or a factor of 15.6.  Using rules of thumb like doubling every 10 years implies a 7.2% compound rate each and every year which fortunately has not taken place. Thus the $350 expenditure in 1931 is equivalent to $5460 in 2015 dollars.  To be sure, certain items such as health and college tuitions have escalated at a much greater rate, but these have been offset by dramatically low rates for capital goods and other sectors. 

Lew Schneider

That is simply not correct! In the case of real estate, collectibles and art, the rule of 10 is exceptionally accurate. Try to buy anything of quality that sold in 1931 for 15.6 times that price today; its not going to happen!! If you believe the US Government CPI calculator, I have some Beachfront Property at Mt. St. Helens that I can offer you at a very friendly price!! Remember, the government is telling us that inflation is almost non-existent now. Have you priced housing, food, gasoline or anything else recently???? 

I should add that if Lew can find me that $350 set for $1556, I will buy 25 of them and give him a $200,000 bonus (because I am a nice guy)!