Allegheny Crossing - 10/8/2022 - Intro Video featuring several locomotives and freight consists

I like the connection between the upper and lower levels, that looks like an interchange between two railroads.

I use gargraves track and ross switches, and it looks like the plan itself will work for running trains. If you plan on modeling other than the CNW, your trains on the outer loop will be running counterclockwise,  so that spur on the left isn't going to be easy to access, plus it faces against your yard. You may want to run it off the middle of the curve, oriented north south rather than east west, and put the switch at the other end so deliveries by local freights can be picked up by your yard engine and shoved back to the yard.

As for the upper level, it looks like you have an operating loading dock of some sort. In the real world, this would be on a spur, not alongside the main like a passenger staion. You could put it along the spur to the left.

Your backshop looks good, but one of your yard tracks comes right off the main, and puts the main through the curve of a switch. Experience has made my shy away from this, as some engines that can handle a normal curve will still derail going through the switch curve at speed.

All in all, though, I like the two levels, and it makes me think of a class 1 on the lower and a short line on the upper, with an interchange.

Thank you, that is great advice!  I can remove the spurs off the mainline on the lower level as they aren't really necessary.  I am not modeling any particular railroad specifically, but I like the PRR and Western Maryland so it will have themes from those.

I like it overall- 3-4 trains on the mains and switching. Looks like a good variety to keep interest.

I would shift the top set of crossovers to the right and extend the yard lead by moving that switch to the left. This will give you more room to work the yard without fouling the main line.
The short spur on the left could be put on the other end of the curve so you don't have to shove a car in (assuming CCW running). |
Shift the short spur on the right to come off track one in the yard. You could curve the spur into the corner and build a coaling facility for steam engines.
Access to the middle? Are you adding pop-up doors or will you have access all around.
Don't know what your scenery plans are but on the upper level you could do a few industrial spurs inside the right reversing loop. The PRR and WM (two of my faves too!), ran a lot of freight and coal. One can never have enough switching IMHO.

I don't run DCS but go get Barry's book on DCS and read it before you start.

https://mthtrains.com/DCS_Companion

Keep us posted on the build.

Bob

Michael,

Best of luck on your new permanent layout.  Keep us informed with pictures of your progress.  You are going to enjoy the Gargraves track and Ross turnouts way more than the tubular stuff you used in the past.

Thank you for the feedback!  I appreciate everybody's ideas and suggestions so far.  The expertise is invaluable.  I will reconfigure the design when I get a chance and post it again to make sure I'm understanding the suggestions correctly.  As far as access, the room is the size of the layout with an additional 3 to 4 feet of walkway on the left side.  The white space is also 2.5 feet of walkway on the top and bottom of the layout.  The right side is against a wall as well as the bottom right and top right sections.  I was planning on doing a backdrop around the sections that are against the wall.  I was going to do some openings in the middle for access.  A rough scenery plan was to have the bottom level somewhat industrial (especially around the yard/backshop area).  Maybe do a farm scene on the left side bottom level between the bottom level and the top level.  And then the top level was going to be a country town with a little industry and possibly a carnival.  The top level will essentially be on a mountain with tunnels running through it for the bottom level. 

What would be a good height for the top level?  The bottom level is at 33" from the floor.  I was thinking 7.5" for the top level which gave me a 3.4% grade going from bottom to top but that might not be enough height.

Barry's DCS book is on my list to get as well as the OGR DCS DVD.

Thanks,

Michael                

Here is Rev B with some of the changes suggested.  Let me know if this works better.  Thanks,

Michael

If you have no access on the right side I would think long and hard about having any turnouts there.  Also one of my regrets has been a table too low.  A would consider 40 inches minimum for the lower level.

Michael- The yard and spurs on the upper level look good.

I agree with NECRAILS, access to get at that double cross-over is a must.

I'm a tall guy so I prefer a higher layout. Raise it up to what feels comfortable to you. Remember lots of bending over while building. Access underneath for wiring is often overlooked too. It depends on your audience too, small kids would need step stools if you raise it.

For the height of the upper level, measure your tallest equipment including the track and adjust accordingly. I think 7.5" is a bit high but depends on what you run. If you can lower it then the grade will be easier for long trains to pull. Watch clearances on curves and check as you go.

Definitely a solid plan and a great start.

Bob

NECRAILS and RSJB18:  Thanks for the advice on the switch access.  I didn't think about that being a problem, but I can see why it would be.  I reconfigured the layout and moved all the switches on the upper level so they were more easily accessible. 

I did a layout a couple years ago that was higher, closer to 48" for the lower level.  I decided that was too high.  So, I decided to lower this one.  I do have small children and that was definitely a consideration.  Also, because the layout is so wide I wanted to have as much arm reach to the center from the sides that I could.  I definitely understand the issues of bending over and doing wiring underneath.  I will figure out what works best for my situation.

Thanks again for all the great advice!  Here is my reconfigured design.              

Looks like a cool project, looking forward to updates in the future.

Good comments from everyone - you will want the DZ-1000 switch machines with the Ross switches. 

One thing that will be new to your O building is using roadbed and having to ballast. Midwest cork.

It may be easier in some locations to put the switch motors opposite of where you have them because of roadbed fitment and allowance for ballast. It appears that you have the space to choose either side on almost all of them.

Would you care to share the file? I was trying to visualize any possible tunnel or elevated track issues. The 3D can still be helpful, even though it is not the easiest to work with. 

Have you run the train simulator to check the play value?

Hello MOONMAN:  I have attached the file.  I am currently using RR Track V4 that does not have the train simulator but I was thinking about upgrading to V5 so that I could run trains through the layout to check clearances etc.  I was curious about tunnel clearance since most of my portals will be on curves.  

Any thoughts on top mounted switch machines vs under the table either the DZ-1000 or Tortise for this layout?  Obviously the under the table looks more realistic but I have read it is a ton more work and difficult to setup.  I agree about switching the location of some switch motors.  I didn't realize how to do that in the software until just now.

Any thoughts on cork vs foam roadbed?  I have heard that the cork can dry out over time but I have never used either so I am open to both.

Thanks for the great comments. 

Michael  

Good Evening,

I have been slightly tweaking the layout plan this week.  I added a passing track on the lower level left side with 2 spurs.  I thought these could be for grain cars as I will have some grain storage in that farm area.  I also started laying out some buildings to see generally how the structures and scenery might fit.  I have included the latest RR Track file for anyone interested in looking at it as well as the new layout plan and some 3D views. 

I upgraded my RR track software, so I now have simulation capability and I will be running trains through the layout this weekend to check everything operationally.  I also got Barry Broskowitz's DCS books so I will be reading them as well.

Still curious for opinions on Cork vs Foam roadbed and table top mount switch motors vs under table mount (either DZ 1000 or Tortise) for this layout.

Any additional advice is greatly appreciated.  Thanks for all your help so far!

Michael       

You have two switches on your lower level reverse loops covered by the upper level. Maybe you should use a crossing of about 22 degrees instead of two switches hidden under the scenery

GFTIV:  Thanks for the suggestion.  In addition to those two, I also have one other switch under the scenery on the lower level that connects the reversing loop back to the mainline.  Is it a bad idea to have any hidden/non accessible switches or do you think those (2) Y switches might be more problematic than a regular switch?  I'm assuming the issue is possible derailments that you can't get to to fix.  

I have been trying to change the (2) Y switches in the double reversing loop to a cross over track while still maintaining minimum 072 curves in reference to GFTIV's suggestion, but I haven't been able to get it to work successfully and line up.  Maybe this is where flex track comes in.  Here is a picture with the 2nd level hidden to see the spot I'm working on.  Any help would be appreciated.  Thank you!

Michael    

What are your thoughts on leaving the (2) Y switches in the layout under the 2nd level scenery but having access to them from under the table in the case of an issue or derailment.  I'm just trying to get this design nailed down so I can start moving forward.  But, never having done a layout this complicated, I appreciate everyone's input to hopefully avoid future problems.  The advice already has been tremendously helpful.  Thank you.  

You do what you have to do to make the layout work. Maybe the only way it works is with two Y switches. Maybe make removable scenery to access if needed. this also applies to the one lead in switch hidden by the upper level.

Michael, 

I did a lot of research on this forum and sought the same feedback you are seeking now.  These were the things that were passed on to me...

Don't think now... Think 10-15 years from now when you are older and not as mobile.

Can you physically reach everything on your layout from a standing position?

Do you want to crawl on the floor under the layout to get to access hatches?

You have a 13x16 grid.  Is this the size of the room or just the size of the layout?  Can you walk around it?  If not, how to do plan to get from the open area on the bottom to the open area on the top?

Bob (RSJB18) above recommended you consider the height when working on top.  Also consider the height when working on the bottom.  I'm 6'4", so when I need to sit on the floor to work on any wiring for anything, the layout is tall enough so I don't have to crouch and I won't hit my head on anything.

I don't want to derail your plans "pun intended", but you may also want to consider an around the room layout with a lift bridge from wherever you enter the room.  That will put you in the middle and give you access to everything.  It will also make all of your building and scenery easy to install, clean and refresh.

My first layout was a large platform for the kids when they were tots.  When my son was 11 we tore down the platform and started building our around the room layout.  That was 6 years ago.  I'm 52 now and very happy that I do not have to worry about accessibility.  I'm sure I'll be even happier at 62.

Just some things to consider.

Have Fun!

Ron

Michael Cimba 040217 posted:

I have been trying to change the (2) Y switches in the double reversing loop to a cross over track while still maintaining minimum 072 curves in reference to GFTIV's suggestion, but I haven't been able to get it to work successfully and line up.  Maybe this is where flex track comes in.  Here is a picture with the 2nd level hidden to see the spot I'm working on.  Any help would be appreciated.  Thank you!

Michael    

Michael- I tried different configurations ( I use SCARM), with various crossovers but couldn't get everything aligned. Flex track may be your only option here with the 22 deg cross. I would try to eliminate the switches under the center at all costs. I could live with the one remaining switch on the lower right.

As you build the layout you will find things that don't fit as you thought they would. This is probably one that you have to build to figure out.

Bob

Michael

I also use Scarm. For simplicity, I only used Ross track and I was able to make the track align by relocating your switches. My dimensions aren't exactly the same as yours, but I think this shows that you can replace the 2 switches with a X.

Thank you everybody for the great input and feedback!  OMAN and RSJB18:, thank you for taking the time to configure the crossover.  I have gotten it to work in RR Track.  There is a slight misalignment with two tracks that I have shown in a close up view.  I don't know if this is an issue or if the Gargraves track has enough play in it to make this work.  If the stock curve won't work I think a piece of flex track should.      

RON045:  thanks for the great advice and encouragement.  I have included a more descriptive view of the layout in the room.  It seemed like this configuration was the best for the way my room is laid out, but I am trying to take all the advice into consideration.  I am definitely trying to think long term and not get half way into things and say "I wish I would have.....  That is where this forum has already been invaluable.

Thanks again!

Michael  

Micheal

That's a small misalignment. It probably won't make any difference. I couldn't help but try to get closer to your objective. Here's another attempt with SCARM. This one uses Gargraves track and Ross.

You may want to consider a longer lead track to the yard. If the lead is longer than the longest siding, you can work each of the yard tracks, (sort the leads to build a train), without fouling the main line.

You could have a longer lead track if the track to the yard started on the left side, next to (above) the switch that goes to the upper level. This will allow you to switch the yard and also run trains on the main line, without any interference. If you are running trains by yourself, this is a convenient feature.

the longer lead also lets you combine a few of the yard tracks into a train, ready to enter the main line. this will clear space in the yard for an incoming train that needs to be broken down.

Good luck with your layout.

I just finished updating the layout yet again.  I shrunk the width of the lower level to make the reversing track crossover fit better.  I added 2 #175 crossover switches instead of using 8 individual switches to go between track's 1 and 2 on the lower level.  I lengthened the yard lead even more per JOE K's suggestion and tweaked the yard a little bit.  

Michael Cimba 040217 posted:

I just finished updating the layout yet again.  I shrunk the width of the lower level to make the reversing track crossover fit better.  I added 2 #175 crossover switches instead of using 8 individual switches to go between track's 1 and 2 on the lower level.  I lengthened the yard lead even more per JOE K's suggestion and tweaked the yard a little bit.  

I just don't understand how you will be able to reach the top right and lower right sections of your layout.  Even with access hatches.

Hello Everybody, 

I have been playing with the layout design some more this weekend and here is another iteration.  I re created the upper level and added an up grade and a down grade so that you can go up and down from level 1 to level 2 on two tracks vs previously having to reverse on the upper level and go back down the way you came up.  I also tried to show my rough ideas for access hatches to access the right side of the layout.  The black track is level 1, the blue track is level 2 and the red tracks are the grades from level 1 to level 2.  Please let me know your thoughts!

Michael    

Looks like its time to start building!

One more recommendation- for access to the right side (bottom of plan), don't build the board all the way to the wall. Should give you about 12" to slide in and reach that corner.

Bob

Thanks Bob, I was thinking the same thing about the access after I posted it.

Good evening,

I have been working in the train room the past several months and I thought I would give a brief update of my progress so far.  The lower level of the benchwork is almost complete.  I still have to add a small extension on the right side.  The second level benchwork and the grades will be added later.  The entire layout has been traced on the benchwork so I know how everything should fit in real space.  The latest project is creating a framework on the back wall for the wrap around backdrop.  Next will be to mount 1/8" masonite to the frame and after that mount the backdrop.  After that is complete and the lower level benchwork is finished I will be ready to start laying track and roadbed on the lower level.  In conjunction with that I have to finish my electrical plan.  My goal is to hopefully have something at least running on the lower level by Christmas.  Hope you enjoy and hope you are all staying healthy and well!  God bless!

I thought I would clean this up a bit, lay the groundwork for the final layout design and show some of the earlier progress of the build.  Here is the final layout design that I settled on.  The track is all gargraves phantom and the switches are Ross custom with Midwest cork roadbed for the track and Ross bed for the switches.  There are 3 individual loops connected plus the yard.  The blue track is a second level and the red tracks are grades going from level 1 to level 2.  I am powering this with (2) Z4000's.  Each loop will get one side of the transformers and the yard will have one side.  I am going to be running the full DCS wifi system.  This will allow me to run both my MTH proto 2 & 3 engines in command mode as well as my postwar Lionel's conventionally.  I am going to use Z1000's for switch and accessory power. 

After years of setting up and taking down Christmas layouts I am now blessed to have a dedicated train room in the basement for this permanent layout. 

Once I had the room ready, I was ready to start building.  I had some leftover bench work from a previous layout that I was able to reuse.  I modified some of the framing members to accommodate my new layout and I added additional benchwork.  Benchwork consists of 2x4 construction with a 3/4" MDF plywood top.

After the lower level benchwork was mostly built I laid the lower level track out to see what it looked like in real space and I traced the layout onto the table top.  I also drew the framing members on the table top so I could see where to screw into as well as knowing where the track would lay relative to the benchwork.Additional benchwork modifications were madeAfter everything was traced I removed all of the track.  I screwed the table top down.  I then cut access holes in the back two corners of the layout.I have some good helpers!  Hopefully I can pass my love of this hobby onto the next generation!

I also cut access holes to access the underside of the second level once it is added later.

I still have a little addition to the benchwork on the right side but it is almost finished.  Next I started adding furring strips to the back and side walls to create the frame for the backdrop.In the upcoming weeks we will be adding 1/8" mdf to the back and side walls which will be the base for the backdrop.  After that is mounted we will be ready to mount the backdrop.  

I will try to keep this updated with the progress.  Thank you for all of your assistance!  Hope you enjoy!  

Michael, I just found your topic, and I must say you are going in a great direction with this layout.  Congratulations on having the space to build it.  I went through a long period without layout space while our daughters were growing up, and now that the last one is married, I have gained a room for my layout build.

One thing, I can not see the first two images, which I think are your current track plan from your reference.  The photographs of your step by step construction look great.  I used GarGraves Phantom Line track, Ross switches, Midwest cork also.  I wish now I had used the Ross bed for under the switches since cutting cork to fit properly is a challenge for me.

I was wondering how you were going to access, but then I read on and saw the many access holes to the upper levels.  Bravo!  You look young enough to crawl under and pop up for years to come.  I approaching 64, on the other hand had to build an around the room layout with a lift up access bridge to the center operating area.  My plan in SCARM called for similar grade and a 6" level separation.  In practice, mine ended up at about 4% and 7 1/4" level separation.  Testing has shown that that grade works fine for the short trains I will run on the layout.  

I like the furring strips for the backdrop.  My layout room has one brick wall that I didn't want to put holes in, so I have mounted the backdrop on braces attached to the layout and notches cut in the hardboard that slip over the joists.  I didn't get it in from the beginning, so some places were a bit of a challenge.  I advise getting the backdrop up soon.  You may be able to crawl on the layout, the framing looks quite strong enough.  I am not able to crawl up on mine, though it would easily hold my 170 pounds.

I am really looking forward to seeing your progress!!  It looks like it will be a wonderful layout to build and operate!!  Congratulations!!!

Mark, thank you for your encouragement and advice!  This layout is a dream come true.  My dad and I are working on it together and my young son very much loves trains right now.  Hopefully it will provide years of enjoyment, learning and discovery for everybody.  I will keep the progress updated!    

I reloaded the first two pictures including the final layout design.  Sorry you couldn't see them.

Looks great!  Nice shelves and trains

Michael, You may find that you want some sort of sound deadening on top of the MDF. Most people use homasote in addition to the cork roadbed

My dad and I have been working for the last two months on getting the backdrop up and it is finally finished.  This had to be completed before I could move forward with any other part of the layout.  Here is the step by step of what we did. 

First we cut, glued and screwed firing strips to the wall.  

After the firing strips were mounted we added rounded corner supports.  

Next we glued and nailed 3/16" masonite panels to the firing strips which would create the wall to mount the backdrop.

For the corners I chose to use an 8" radius due to space limitations of my layout design.  This is a tighter radius than most people use.  In order to bend the masonite panels we cut them into smaller strips and precut kerrfs on the back side of the entire radius. 

After all the panels were up I then mudded the joints and nail holes to create a smooth surface.

After 3 coats of mud with sanding in between we were then ready to hang the backdrop.  The backdrop was purchased from backdrop warehouse and came in 4 sections (lower scene A and B) and reverse gradient sky extensions A and B).  We used rubber cement to glue the backdrop to the backing.  It was a bit of a tedious process to get each section lined up and glued on properly.  It didn't turn out 100% perfect ( there are a few wrinkles and bubles, mostly in the corners) but all in all I am very pleased with the result!  If I ever have to do another one, I'll know what not to do :0).

My layout is going to loosley model the feel of the Pennsylvania and Western Maryland railroads in the 1940's to 50's so this scene will nicely set the stage for that.

The next project will be to start laying some track for the lower level and start testing some trains for operations and clearances etc.  Until next time, thanks for reading.  Hope you enjoy!

Looking good from here!

Steve

Michael Cimba 040217  Is it your plan to finish your ceiling some day?

My personal lesson learned is DO IT NOW before you lay track and start to add stuff.

I'm doing my ceiling now and regretting not doing it first.  It's VERY hard once stuff is in place.

Everything else looks wonderful.

Have Fun!
Ron