LED bulbs or LED Strips???

I recently added bayonet LEDs to my K-Line Heavyweights. Been pleased so far. As far as results, I put incadecent back in the baggage car as the film on the windows was different and it didn’t match the rest with LEDs installed. Mine are the older ones with the silhouettes and not the full interior. The light distribution is fine, but they also has 4 bulbs per car. 

Yes. Screw in LED’s tend to concentrate light in one spot and don’t evenly spread out the light like a strip light does in my experience. 

I tried some LED screw-in bulbs I found on the web, but they were too tall to fit in my cabooses, so I didn’t even try them in anything else. I figured they might still be usable in structures, though.

Bill in FtL

Jeff, I just bought a pre-owned set of SF polished aluminum 15" cars that were delivered today.  The previous owner installed GRJ's LED package and I was curious to see how they lit the cars.

They performed as advertised for these silhouette window strip cars--very even, warm illumination with no flicker at all.

Honesty compels me to add that I have "rolled my own" using GRJ's early posts on how to install LED's in passenger cars buying the various components on eBay, Digikey, et al. and, consequently, I would not be a buyer of GRJ's RTR package. 

For someone who doesn't want to "roll his/her own" GRJ's package performs as advertised.

You can also just pick up the LED regulators and LED strips and do the cars for half the price of the turnkey lighting kits.

I can say that the strip lighting far exceeds the quality of the lighting you'll get with replacement LED bulbs.  Three or four bulbs vs 20 or more LED's on the strips is no contest, the lighting is much more even and realistic with the LED strips.

Another nice thing about the strips, you can pick the color temperature based on the era, yellow, amber, warm white, bright white, etc.  For an eerie touch, try red.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

You can also just pick up the LED regulators and LED strips and do the cars for half the price of the turnkey lighting kits.

I can say that the strip lighting far exceeds the quality of the lighting you'll get with replacement LED bulbs.  Three or four bulbs vs 20 or more LED's on the strips is no contest, the lighting is much more even and realistic with the LED strips.

What are the LED regulators? Do you have any recommendations and link?

Is a regulator needed if running in command control (constant voltage on track)? 

Jeff, you always need some control of the current to the LED's, they operate in a very narrow voltage range.  Here's the lighting modules.

 LED Lighting Regulator

• Requires a small fraction of the power of conventional lighting
• Provides adjustable lighting intensity
• Storage capacitor on module provides flicker-free operation
• MTH DCS compatible, will not degrade DCS track signal
• Simple connections to power and LEDs

Now to open up the CA Zephyr cars and see where/if the strip lighting will work.

I've done hundreds of passenger cars, I've never seen one where you couldn't use strip lighting.  Some are more work than others, and some require some surgery to remove mounting posts and the like, but I can get the lights in there.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

You can also just pick up the LED regulators and LED strips and do the cars for half the price of the turnkey lighting kits.

I can say that the strip lighting far exceeds the quality of the lighting you'll get with replacement LED bulbs.  Three or four bulbs vs 20 or more LED's on the strips is no contest, the lighting is much more even and realistic with the LED strips.

Another nice thing about the strips, you can pick the color temperature based on the era, yellow, amber, warm white, bright white, etc.  For an eerie touch, try red.

GRJ, Have you given thought to modifying you module so color changing LEDs could be used? That way, instead of chosing the color temperature of the LEDs before installing them, you have the option of changing colors whenever the situation might call for it, i.e., red or green to light the cars during the current holidays or orange during Halloween, etc. Could be fun for folks with fantasy railroad schemes.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Jeff, you always need some control of the current to the LED's, they operate in a very narrow voltage range.  Here's the lighting modules.

 LED Lighting Regulator

• Requires a small fraction of the power of conventional lighting
• Provides adjustable lighting intensity
• Storage capacitor on module provides flicker-free operation
• MTH DCS compatible, will not degrade DCS track signal
• Simple connections to power and LEDs

 

Like I tried to point out in my post yesterday these work excellent and you can also get them in kit form at Hennings trains.

ogaugeguy posted:

GRJ, Have you given thought to modifying you module so color changing LEDs could be used? That way, instead of chosing the color temperature of the LEDs before installing them, you have the option of changing colors whenever the situation might call for it, i.e., red or green to light the cars during the current holidays or orange during Halloween, etc. Could be fun for folks with fantasy railroad schemes.

Never entered my mind as that would be WAY more complex than just supplying constant regulated current!  It certainly could be done, but I seriously doubt I could sell enough of them to get them produced at a reasonable price.  If the fancy regulator were priced at $40/ea instead of $10/ea, I suspect I'd have lots of parts in stock and a big hole in my budget!

Real car lights would also shine down. Led strips point down. LED bulbs often point up. (you gotta watch the mounting direction (as well as the projection angle; more so on the bulb types actually because number of leds inside it may be only one, or may be a bunch mounted at angles to cover every direction)

Jeff T posted:

Now to open up the CA Zephyr cars and see where/if the strip lighting will work.

Speaking about opening up the cars some cars passenger cars can be a bear to take apart and put back together. If you don’t have them already I would suggest you get passengers in the car now while you have them opened up. I’m doing that with some Atlas cars i’m working on now. 

gunrunnerjohn posted:

ogaugeguy posted:

GRJ, Have you given thought to modifying you module so color changing LEDs could be used? That way, instead of chosing the color temperature of the LEDs before installing them, you have the option of changing colors whenever the situation might call for it, i.e., red or green to light the cars during the current holidays or orange during Halloween, etc. Could be fun for folks with fantasy railroad schemes.

Never entered my mind as that would be WAY more complex than just supplying constant regulated current!  It certainly could be done, but I seriously doubt I could sell enough of them to get them produced at a reasonable price.  If the fancy regulator were priced at $40/ea instead of $10/ea, I suspect I'd have lots of parts in stock and a big hole in my budget!

Very true, John. That would certainly be a niche within a niche within a niche within a niche within a niche ... product. LOL

Chris is right, whenever I open mine up, I always have the passengers ready to go in with the lights.  Funny thing, it usually takes longer to select and seat the passengers than it does to install the lighting!

What is the problem with just wiring the LED strip lights directly to track power in the car without the regulator? Most or all are rated for 12V and work at 18V, but I assume this would shorten the life of the LEDs.  Is the regulator a voltage divider ckt? 

I have the LED bulbs inside my aluminum and Madison cars that have silhouettes and think they look fine. No, the lighting isn't even, but neither were the original incandescents. 

pennsy484 posted:

What is the problem with just wiring the LED strip lights directly to track power in the car without the regulator? 

LED's are DC only.

 Also,  GRJ's board and similar ones sold on eBay that he's recommended have capacitors which eliminate the flicker.

pennsy484 posted:

What is the problem with just wiring the LED strip lights directly to track power in the car without the regulator? Most or all are rated for 12V and work at 18V, but I assume this would shorten the life of the LEDs.  Is the regulator a voltage divider ckt? 

Let's see...  No intensity control, no flicker resistance, shortened live of the LED's.  That's a few of the problems.

I have led strip tape (6 LEDs) just tied directly to the track power.  I guess I will see how long they last.  As to intensity I had altered the color with a dab of Tamiya clear orange, so that probably makes them look less intensely lit (over lit) but they will likely not last as long.

What is the flicker exactly? Do you mean like when the car goes over a switch etc., or is this something else? I sometimes sense a slight but strange effect to my eye as the cars go by at a high speed (and have seen flickering on videos of LEDs in trains, but I don't think mine exhibit that, I'll have to make a video to check).

With the inexpensive strip tape LEDs now available, I think I'll just see what happens as far as life span goes and if it's not too short (like in line with a regular bulb) just replace as needed.

Interesting topic, thanks for the info. 

pennsy484 posted:

I have led strip tape (6 LEDs) just tied directly to the track power.  I guess I will see how long they last.  As to intensity I had altered the color with a dab of Tamiya clear orange, so that probably makes them look less intensely lit (over lit) but they will likely not last as long.

What is the flicker exactly? Do you mean like when the car goes over a switch etc., or is this something else? I sometimes sense a slight but strange effect to my eye as the cars go by at a high speed (and have seen flickering on videos of LEDs in trains, but I don't think mine exhibit that, I'll have to make a video to check).

With the inexpensive strip tape LEDs now available, I think I'll just see what happens as far as life span goes and if it's not too short (like in line with a regular bulb) just replace as needed.

Interesting topic, thanks for the info. 

For me, the bane of directly wiring LEDs to the track would be that the shortened life span of the LEDs would necessitate the hassle of having to reopen the cars to replace those LEDs. Personally, I'd rather save the additional time spent reopening the cars and replacing LEDS than save the initial cost of adding a regulator to each LED strip. For me time saved is money saved since I believe my time is worth money.

O gauge guy, that makes sense, assuming the LEDs don't last long, which I don't know yet.  Do you have a link for purchase of the regulators? I have rolls of these LEDs which I also use for the layout lighting in places and will use for structure lights as well. Thanks.

Here are the strips I use.

Here's a video . Just the 3 coaches have the LEDs in them.  https://youtu.be/1IdyQyOzjLU

pennsy484 posted:

...

What is the flicker exactly? Do you mean like when the car goes over a switch etc., or is this something else? I sometimes sense a slight but strange effect to my eye as the cars go by at a high speed (and have seen flickering on videos of LEDs in trains, but I don't think mine exhibit that, I'll have to make a video to check)..

Correct.  There are essentially two types of flicker. 

One is the intermittent loss of track voltage over dirty track, a crossover, a switch, etc.  This is the same as the flicker you'd see on incandescent cars.  However, LED lights are solid-state and responds instantly to loss of voltage.  Filament bulbs still glow as they cool down.  So the end effect varies depending on duration of the dropouts.

The other flicker is from driving the DC LEDs with only half of the AC signal which is what you're doing by directly connecting across the AC track voltage.  What happens is the LEDs are being pulsed or flashed 60 times per second.  Most guys over 50 can't perceive this flashing but it's there.  If you stare at a pulsing LED strip and quickly turn you head you'll see the phenomenon...same idea as when the cars go by at high speed with your eyes aimed at a fixed point.  This effect is similar to the "flicker" folks complained (headaches, eye strain) about with fluorescent lighting using magnetic ballasts.  These lamps also had pulsing brightness synchronized to the 60 Hz AC frequency; modern fluorescent lighting of course use electronic ballasts which drive the lamps at a much higher frequency so no perceived flicker.

A capacitor can smooth out both types of "flicker".  Suitable capacitors for this application operate on DC voltage.

As for the video "effect", a digital camera can indeed reveal flicker that your eye/brain cannot perceive.  It depends on the camera's timing (frames per second, aperture time, blah, blah, blah).  If the camera captures successive images that are not in sync with the pulsing LED brightness, you can get what could arguably be called a third type of flicker known as aliasing.

I think flicker has been covered.   Like stated, I prefer a "once and done" job, I open them up and do the lighting and passengers, and I don't want to do it again.