Legacy Powermaster 360 power supplies?

First off, the PW ZW could only produce roughly 190 watts and that can all come from one handle, so it would not make any since to run wires from both handles.  If you want to use your PW ZWs just get a PM 180.  You will need to buy an adapter to connect to the PM.

If you want more power (lots of debate here so we won't go there), you need to power the PM360 with transformers outputting nearly identical power, hard to do with a transformer with power controlled by handles.  You need fixed power sources like the PH135 or PH180 to safely power a PM. For example, the brick off the Z-1000 would work too with an adapter.

I'm waiting for my PM360 to arrive.  I did not know there was a restriction that you had to have two bricks attached, which is different than my TPC400s. I only power on both bricks when I need the extra power, usually I just run with one brick turned on. Need to ask about this at the LUG meeting at York.

No problem turning one brick off, but there is a gotcha that might get you.  If you don't switch the secondary or at least unplug it when that transformer is not running, it will step the voltage on the secondary, 18 volts, to 120 volts on the primary plug!  If you're going to install a switch, make it a DPST switch and switch the hot and the secondary.  Better yet, switch the secondary and use a relay to switch the primary so you don't have have 120 volts so close in the wiring.

John,

For brevity I didn't go into detail but because of past forum discussions I disconnect the PH180 I'm not using from the TPC, not just turn it off.  The TPC runs fine with only one PH connected.  

It looks like the PM 360 needs both PH's connected to work.  In that case turning off one PH without disconnecting it from the PM invites a couple of issues, not just a live primary plug. I guess I'd like to know can the PM 360 work normally with only one PH attached.

CAPPilot posted:

...I guess I'd like to know can the PM 360 work normally with only one PH attached.

With a splitter. With input on both jacks, the PM has no idea if it's one or two PowerHouse bricks(or other power supply(ies) - if for example you are using a large industrial transformer or similar). Or you can make your own with two 12893 cables.

So in my situation if I feed power using my PW ZW to both inputs on the PM360, it won't know the difference.  Am I thinking correctly?

Yes. but you will only have 190-200 watts available. The overload protection of the PM should work OK too for discreet short circuits, as the ZW is easily capable of 20+ amps for short durations.

Thanks Rob.  I'm fully aware I'd only have the output watts of the PW ZW.  I appreciate you answering my question.

If 2-180 powerhouses are hooked up to the 360 powermaster. What would it hurt by turning one powerhouse off but leaving everything connected including the power cords pluged in to the outlets.

The PH that is off will run backwards (I guess that is correct terminology), changing 18VAC to 120VAC at the plug, which is what makes it dangerous. The off PH will get hot and rob power for your trains.

CAPPilot posted:

John,

For brevity I didn't go into detail but because of past forum discussions I disconnect the PH180 I'm not using from the TPC, not just turn it off.  The TPC runs fine with only one PH connected.  

It looks like the PM 360 needs both PH's connected to work.  In that case turning off one PH without disconnecting it from the PM invites a couple of issues, not just a live primary plug. I guess I'd like to know can the PM 360 work normally with only one PH attached.

After I made this statement, I re-read the TPC manual and there is only one AC input to the device.  You then use a Y cable to connect two Powerhouse transformers to the one input.  There is no unused AC input terminals.

Lionel has not yet put the 360W PM manual on their web site, but looking at Charlie's picture above there are two input jacks on the 360 model meaning a Y cable is not used.  Also, the power input selection switch only had 270W and 360W settings, no 180W setting.

If only one PH is attached, I assume the jack not used would be hot and susceptible to shorting if something conductive got into it.   There may be other reasons, so I'm going to ask MartyE to bring this up at the LUG meeting.  Rob's idea of a splitter sounds good, but more work going between one and two PoHos.

I plan to have two 360W PM, one each for my longer mainlines.  I have 10-11 PH180s laying around here (every time I saw one at a good price I bought it, some below $30.00), so keeping two connected all the time is not an issue.  Just thought it was wasted power when not needed, and yes it could damage the trains during a derailment if for some reason the PSX-AC failed.

The 180W PowerHouse is rated at 10A output and has a circuit breaker that trips at 10A.  The 135W PowerHouse is rated at 7.5A and has a 7.5A circuit breaker. These circuit breakers must be manually reset when they trip.  When the PowerMaster is set for 360W its internal current limit is set for 2 - 180W PowerHouses or 20A (2 X 10A).  When set for 270W the current limit is 15A (2 X 7.5A).  One of the key features of the 360W PowerMaster is that its internal current limit is very fast.  If the track is shorted, the PowerMaster will trip before the PowerHouse breakers trip.  The PowerMaster can be reset remotely from the CAB 1/1L/2.  If the PowerHouse breakers had tripped you would have to go find the PowerHouses and press the reset buttons.

Using only one PowerHouse with the 360W PowerMaster will not hurt anything.  If only one PowerHouse is used and the track is shorted the current limit in the PowerMaster will never activate.  Any overload or short circuit at the track will trip the circuit breaker on the PowerHouse which will need to be manually reset.  This is a nuisance but will not damage anything.

What is important is that no more than 10A be run through each input connector on the PowerMaster.  If someone has an 18V 20A transformer or hot-wires 2-180W PowerHouses together and connects it to only one of the PowerMaster input connectors it will overheat and melt. 

You do not need a "Y" connector to use only one PowerHouse.  Just plug it into either one of the input connectors.  The input connectors are just tied together inside the PowerMaster.

Dave, Thanks much for clarifying this.  Seems as though the PM360 will work just fine in my application.

Dave Olson posted:

The 180W PowerHouse is rated at 10A output and has a circuit breaker that trips at 10A.  The 135W PowerHouse is rated at 7.5A and has a 7.5A circuit breaker. These circuit breakers must be manually reset when they trip.  When the PowerMaster is set for 360W its internal current limit is set for 2 - 180W PowerHouses or 20A (2 X 10A).  When set for 270W the current limit is 15A (2 X 7.5A).  One of the key features of the 360W PowerMaster is that its internal current limit is very fast.  If the track is shorted, the PowerMaster will trip before the PowerHouse breakers trip.  The PowerMaster can be reset remotely from the CAB 1/1L/2.  If the PowerHouse breakers had tripped you would have to go find the PowerHouses and press the reset buttons.

Using only one PowerHouse with the 360W PowerMaster will not hurt anything.  If only one PowerHouse is used and the track is shorted the current limit in the PowerMaster will never activate.  Any overload or short circuit at the track will trip the circuit breaker on the PowerHouse which will need to be manually reset.  This is a nuisance but will not damage anything.

What is important is that no more than 10A be run through each input connector on the PowerMaster.  If someone has an 18V 20A transformer or hot-wires 2-180W PowerHouses together and connects it to only one of the PowerMaster input connectors it will overheat and melt. 

You do not need a "Y" connector to use only one PowerHouse.  Just plug it into either one of the input connectors.  The input connectors are just tied together inside the PowerMaster.

Dave, what am I misunderstanding?  You say it's ok to use one, while the document states that you must use two.

Which is it?

Thanks,

Steve

CAPPilot posted:

The PH that is off will run backwards (I guess that is correct terminology), changing 18VAC to 120VAC at the plug, which is what makes it dangerous. The off PH will get hot and rob power for your trains          Ahh so When I want to use 1 180 powerhouse which is most of the time. I will just unplug one of them from the powermaster. Thank you good to know.

Dave,

Thank you for taking the time to fully explain this.  Great customer service

What really got my interest was your comment that the 360W PM's CB was faster than the already very fast CB in the PH180.  With 20 amps going to the track, that is great to hear.

Again, thank you!

I think the documentation should reflect your statement Dave.   That's a whole lot milder than NEVER!

Understood on the manual. It was meant to prevent people from only using one PH so that the PM circuit trips. Again, a convenience thing. We may have just gotten carried away with the CAPS and bold font.  

Dave Olson posted:

We may have just gotten carried away with the CAPS and bold font.  

That just might have been a bit over the top.   

One thing that would be really useful in general is for a line or two of explanation for configurations like this.  If you'd have just written in the manual what you stated here, it would have made a lot more sense.  Remember the little boy who cried Wolf.   There are too many dire warnings in manuals nowadays.  I get a simple product and over half the manual is safety warnings!  How many warnings do you need for a simple product like a computer keyboard?

As far as the PH180 is concerned, unless the new one has a totally different sensing circuit, when they're run in parallel, the circuit breaker operation is somewhat suspect.  You end up tripping far before you get to the full rating of the two bricks.  Of course, if you're drawing 12-13 amps, after one trips, the other soon follows.

Hello! I am new to the forum, but have been collecting and creating my Lionel Layout for some time. I just wanted to give my experience with the lionel powermaster 360 watt in hopes it helps someone with power choices. I am not sure if this is the right place to do this, please let me know if I need to post this in another area of the forum. 

Experience with the lionel powermaster 360 watt

I recently upgraded from the Lionel ZW-C with two 180 watt powerhouse supplies that were attached to the ZW-C. I decided to try something different with my layout. I purchased two Lionel Powermaster 360 watt units and purchased two more Lionel 180 Powerhouses. My layout consists of two loops joined by two sets of command 0-72 FasTrack switches (symmetrical from a birds eye view). Instead of using one powerhouse 360 for one loop, I used one powermaster 360 to control half of my layout while the other powermaster 360 controls the other half. 

Now I understand that 20 amps to the track is a lot and for my current layout this power setup is way too much power, remember I just wanted to experiment and test out some products.. 

So for the first test I intentionally derailed two different lionel legacy locomotives. One was the new union pacific fef and the other was a union pacific SD45 two separate times. I was surprised at the results. Both engines had the same result. Minimal spark (to me it looked no different than when I was using the lionel zw-c and experienced a derailment). Also I have spare parts for both of these engines so if anything went completely south I would be able to fix them with ease. Also I had smoke on high and volume at max (basically maxing out each engine in regards to how much current was being used). 

The fold back current safety measure on the 360 watt works extremely well. If I was to compare it to the older lionel TPC 300 or 400 unit I would just say its better in every way. Its easy to connect to the layout, has excellent safety measures that do actually protect the engines to some degree. 

I spoke with Charles Ro and he agreed that the PSX AC was not necessarily needed. My input towards this is that if you have frequent derailments along with power surge concerns I would highly suggest using the PSX AC. I usually dont have derailmemts as I never take the engines above medium speed and the layout I run on is not complex. 

I will eventually get them just to be on the safe side.

It would not hurt to use the PSX AC with the Lionel Powermaster 360 6-82883. It is not not needed in short term. 

I'd say this product is really useful and keeps wiring simple. I do use the star wiring method along with using the MTH block with 12 ports for each powermaster 360 watt. I also use 14 ga wire (stranded) from the powermaster 360 to the MTH block and 16 ga wire (stranded) to separate parts of the tracks. 

I also have the powermasters set at 18.5 volts to the track. The voltmeter typically reads 18.44 throughout the entire layout. 

I hope this helps and I may have not explained everything as thoroughly so if there any questions please let me know and I would be happy to clarify!

- Rajin