LionChief beeping

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

You're free to bypass the topic if it offends you.

No, I’m not offended. But please go on… how does a crash of a 737 jetliner relate to a LionChief locomotive beeping while the remote is off? I got my popcorn. 😉

I was really trying to discuss a design change proposal, or hear arguments why the design is optimal as is. I am a little taken aback by most responses focusing around „deal with it“. Nobody has come forward to try and explain why the beeping helps more customers than it does harm. It’s no big deal, I can live with it or replace it with something else. A LionChief Plus or scale model can  be run conventionally, so maybe it won’t do this?

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Actually, there have been a number of crashes where the automation has thwarted the pilot's attempt to save the plane, the 737 MAX was just the latest example.

Okay… and this relates to LionChief locomotives beeping when the remote is turned off??  

Please Lionel!! Release the catalog!!

@Hogges posted:

I was really trying to discuss a design change proposal, or hear arguments why the design is optimal as is. I am a little taken aback by most responses focusing around „deal with it“. Nobody has come forward to try and explain why the beeping helps more customers than it does harm. It’s no big deal, I can live with it or replace it with something else. A LionChief Plus or scale model can  be run conventionally, so maybe it won’t do this?

P.S.: I realize I am new to this board and I didn’t mean to come out with my second post swinging against anything or anyone. I had hoped that there would be a way to silence the Bluetooth beeps without affecting the rest of the sound effects. Or that yes, over time Lionel would think about refining their designs. Not overnight, I realize that.

I for one(maybe the only one) would like to have a “display” switch option on engines.  Would power the led lighting on the engine.  I have a “duded” up display shelf that I swap engines on from time to time.  Would be nice to have the engines lit on demand.  🤷‍♂️  

Agree that flashing lights would be better than sound as a design.

I think the idea of the beeping is to indicate that there is power getting to the engine and it's ready to pair with remote or app. If it was silent you would not know if there was power to the track or engine could be in a dead spot or derailed.

@Madockawando posted:

No, I’m not offended. But please go on… how does a crash of a 737 jetliner relate to a LionChief locomotive beeping while the remote is off? I got my popcorn. 😉

Sir, you are a member in good standing and I just recently joined, so I am hesitant to respond because I don’t want to get banned from this board for being off topic, and I plan to continue to get more O gauge stuff in the future, both old and new.

I brought up the Airbus example because an engineer had disallowed a mode of operation simply because he or she decided that the scenario wouldn’t make sense, with disastrous results.

In the same way, the LionChief engine doesn’t allow the mode of operation of just sitting on a powered track without a remote present. An engineer probably thought “why would you turn the power on if you don’t want to run the engine”, just guessing. There would be no harm in allowing it.

@Landsteiner posted:

Agree that flashing lights would be better than sound as a design.

It actually is flashing the headlight, too. Much less annoying and easier to locate if you have multiple engines, I imagine.

@Hogges posted:

It actually is flashing the headlight, too. Much less annoying and easier to locate if you have multiple engines, I imagine.

Just like it was designed to do. The headlight flash and beep says: “Don’t forgot to turn on the remote so I can move around the track.”

@Madockawando posted:

Just like it was designed to do. The headlight flash and beep says: “Don’t forgot to turn on the remote so I can move around the track.”

You have now said multiple times the exact same thing, that it was designed to do this, which I knew when I started the tread. I think we have all heard you by now. I guess questions starting with "why" are not allowed in your world view.

@Hogges posted:

You have now said multiple times the exact same thing, that it was designed to do this, which I knew when I started the tread. I think we have all heard you by now. I guess questions starting with "why" are not allowed in your world view.

Hmm… it’s not a world view… or my preference…it’s just the locomotive is doing what it’s supposed to do.

Lionel Customer Service Representatives (CSR’s) are available Monday through Friday 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. ET to answer general questions regarding products and services offered by Lionel.

Phone: 586-949-4100 or 800-454-6635
Select Option 2

When calling Lionel Customer Service, please note extensions 9105 and 9106 are no longer valid extensions and will only delay you in reaching our staff.

TalkToUs@lionel.com

Lionel LLC
Attn: Customer Service
6301 Performance Drive
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THANK YOU FOR REACHING OUT TO LIONEL CUSTOMER SERVICE; WE APPRECIATE YOUR CONTINUED INTEREST IN OUR PRODUCTS AND BRAND AND VALUE OUR CUSTOMERS OPINIONS.

@RickO posted:

Lionel Customer Service Representatives (CSR’s) are available Monday through Friday 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. ET to answer general questions regarding products and services offered by Lionel.

Phone: 586-949-4100 or 800-454-6635
Select Option 2

When calling Lionel Customer Service, please note extensions 9105 and 9106 are no longer valid extensions and will only delay you in reaching our staff.

TalkToUs@lionel.com

Lionel LLC
Attn: Customer Service
6301 Performance Drive
Concord, NC 28027

THANK YOU FOR REACHING OUT TO LIONEL CUSTOMER SERVICE; WE APPRECIATE YOUR CONTINUED INTEREST IN OUR PRODUCTS AND BRAND AND VALUE OUR CUSTOMERS OPINIONS.

If you read my first post then you can see that I did just that. My post here was merely a copy.

This discussion has really gone "off the rails". Peering into my crystal ball I see a "no further comments allowed" in its future...🤔

Mark in Oregon

@Hogges posted:

If you read my first post then you can see that I did just that. My post here was merely a copy.

Contacting customer service is best for when something is broken. Since your locomotive isn’t broken, what you are requesting is an engineering change. Perhaps contact an engineer from Lionel.

@Madockawando posted:

Contacting customer service is best for when something is broken. Since your locomotive isn’t broken, what you are requesting is an engineering change. Perhaps contact an engineer from Lionel.

I emailed to “talktous”. If I get anything back that’s more than a generic reply I’ll share it here. Thanks

@Strummer posted:

This discussion has really gone "off the rails". Peering into my crystal ball I see a "no further comments allowed" in its future...🤔

Mark in Oregon

I think everyone is having the Lionel catalog withdrawal  shakes. People will hopefully be better grounded once the catalog comes out. It’s like Vulcan Pon Far.😉

Hey, I’m a LionChief Plus fan, AND I think using a flashing headlight makes WAY more sense than the beeping!

At any given time I may have two or three LionChief engines on the layout, and need to fire up all the remotes to silence the beeps!

Its just silly.

Jon

How about installing a small track powered device inside the locomotive with independent key fob remote?

Pushing a button on the keyfob remote would trigger a switch to turn the speaker on/offand a second switch would toggle locomotive lights between either on with track power or controlled by Lion Chief circuitry.

Too bad it couldn’t be optional to have it beep maybe a switch or app control.

I suspect it beeping is more likely to remind you to power down the track when done rather than to turn on the remote.

@Madockawando posted:

I think everyone is having the Lionel catalog withdrawal  shakes. People will hopefully be better grounded once the catalog comes out. It’s like Vulcan Pon Far.😉

I guess... although once the catalog comes out, there will be plenty of talk about what's "NOT included this time." The Lionel faithful seem to be a tough group to satisfy... 🤔 🙂

Mark in Oregon

@Strummer posted:

I guess... although once the catalog comes out, there will be plenty of talk about what's "NOT included this time." The Lionel faithful seem to be a tough group to satisfy... 🤔 🙂

Mark in Oregon

Well when Software failures on the Boeing 737 is equated with a beep from a LionChief locomotive you know the forum need a new topic to get excited about. A new Lionel catalog  cures many ills.

I guess I'll beat the dead horse too.  Sorry for the length of post.
I agree with you fully regarding the engineers hindsight to design a product as each of us feel it should be!
Hardly a day goes by when I don't say bad things about engineers who can't design their way out of a wet paper bag!

But the main point is that the teeter totter / scale, always has to stay balanced.
In this case the engineers have to balance the design/functionality on one side while achieving profit/cost on the other side of the teeter totter.
I happen to think they cost way too much already.  Adding another 25 cent switch and associated cost to turn off the beeping is also bad design.
So we need to drop the issue of design since it's WUTB.

Before I get on with it, keep in mind that in order for a Blue Tooth locamotive to detect your remotes blue tooth signal, the Loco electronics need to be powered up for the blue tooth receiver to function.  A prerequiste point for possible solutions to the issue.  Something I haven't seen brought up here - unless I missed it.

If you haven't really applied harmonyards thinking and solution to your problem I think you need to reconsider it.  It solves your issues and offers the best solution except for one area.
You will still need to get on the ladder "one more time" to implement his solution.
But it still has the issue of where or how to run wires to control the block power without tearing into your walls.
Since you have power "up there" already, I would suggest that you acquire one of the remote key fob type of products - already mentioned in a different context - that allow you to switch power on or off to a 110vac coil relay, whose contacts would then serve as a switch for the track block where you would "park" your locomotive.  I still use a lot of X-10 which would be perfect for this app but unfortunately this is a "dead" technology and it's hard to find existing product anymore.
I have seen other types of products out there that would provide a solution for this.  Box stores carry various remotes switches as example.

So this accomplishes your objectives of light control (polar express - etc), sound control (no more beeping), and inadvertant light switch control (which causes the sound issue - hence a need to always leave it on to control the new relay). And by the way, you could eliminate the wall switch entirely with a 2 channel remote switch (thus removing the switch wall plate - placing a wiring connector on the two black switch wires thus creating an always on outlet and putting a dummy cover on the removed switch) ( now, this is engineering....  : )  
Doing some googling will find you a remote rf or ir type of switch to control power to that block where your locamotive would be parked.
Others in this forum might chime in if they know of a remote switch off the top of their heads that may allow for control of the block power contact closure.  I'll keep my eye open in the mean time.
Good Luck.

PS.  The only down side is you'll have to keep two remotes where you can find them!..... : )

Wow, great topic as this is my number one issue too. Unless you add switches etc the darn engines sit on a side track beeping.  Maybe something they can change in the future.  I'm in your corner don't worry or give much thought to those that don't understand how we like to operate our trains.

This thread has been a hoot to read and I have also learned some interesting ideas from the multiple solutions that have been offered.    At the risk of setting off 20 more posts.... do we really think the design engineers had this operating scenario in their design documents?

Operating scenario #765 (yes, we have programmed for the other 764 scenarios we dreamed up):

The track and loco are located on a ceiling track and the track is powered by a light switch, which is easily activated by accident since it is located with multiple other wall switches which the home occupants can't keep straight.  No one is interested in running the locomotive but there are passenger cars attached and the owner wants them to just sit there all lit up.

  I vote we give the engineers and programmers a break!

hokie71. Your " beeping" correct. 🙂

I have a couple of these lionchief steam locomotives.  All I did was to pop a hole under the tender, install a small toggle switch. Hook it up in series with one side of a speaker wire.  If I wanted it to sit still without the chirping,  just flip the switch to disconnect the speaker from the main board.  When ready to run it,  flip the switch on which will allow the audio to make to the speaker.  Same with a diesel, just find a clear spot to Mount the toggle switch and hook it in series to one side of the speaker.  Make sure it’s out of warranty first,  otherwise, it will be voided.  Works fine for me!  

I’m with the OP. That beeping is as annoying and pointless as the door open chime in a car. Yes, I know the door is open. I opened it.

@Mark Holmgren 110217 posted:

I’m with the OP. That beeping is as annoying and pointless as the door open chime in a car. Yes, I know the door is open. I opened it.

LoL . The door chime only goes off when you inadvertently leave a car door open, just like the locomotive beeps when you inadvertently leave the remote off.

Close the door… turn on the remote.  Drive off in the car, run the locomotive. What a hoot.

@Hogges posted:

Imagine your car’s bluetooth beeping at you indefinitely because it can’t find the phone you last paired it with?

What were Lionel’s engineers thinking when they decided that any LionChief engine should do just that until you switch the associated remote on? What’s so terrible about a train just sitting there quietly, its cars all lit up?

I wrote the following to Lionel customer support this morning:

“…I recently bought a Lionchief Bluetooth 5.0 set for a track along the ceiling which my wife had suggested.

The track is powered by a light switch, and easily activated „by accident“ along with light switches right next to it. Which would not be a problem, in fact it would be nice to have the six passenger car Polar Express train just sit there all lit up.

Except for the awful chirping the engine puts out until it sees the LionChief remote!

We can’t very well keep the battery operated remote on 24/7. It would be so nice if the beeping could just be switched off, in our application.

Thank you”

Wolfgang

Hi Wolfgang, I also found this very annoying.  I found a solution for my situation.  I don't care about the sounds or crew talk so I blocked the connection between the locomotive and the tender with some electrical tape.  Might not be what you want but it worked for me.  Good Luck!

@Mark Holmgren 110217 posted:

I’m with the OP. That beeping is as annoying and pointless as the door open chime in a car. Yes, I know the door is open. I opened it.

It isn't beeping to tell you you left your door open. It's beeping to tell you you left your keys in the ignition so you don't lock yourself out.

@Train Nut posted:

It isn't beeping to tell you you left your door open. It's beeping to tell you you left your keys in the ignition so you don't lock yourself out.

More gosh darn technology, functioning as its supposed to.

Kind of like a "beep" warning you to turn on your remote or else your Lionel LionChief locomotive won't move. Unless of course, you are trying to use your LionChief Polar Express set as a night light and discovered that those meddling kids at Lionel have foiled your plans yet again with their new fangled technology.

@Mark Holmgren 110217 posted:

I’m with the OP. That beeping is as annoying and pointless as the door open chime in a car. Yes, I know the door is open. I opened it.

@Train Nut is very close.  The chime isn't about letting you know that the door is open.  It's letting you know that you've left the keys in the ignition as you're leaving the car.

See U.S. Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard (FMVSS) No. 114 for more details.

(We wouldn't want someone to sneak in and steal it, after you leave, because you forgot to take the keys., would we?)

Mike

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

@Train Nut is very close.  The chime isn't about letting you know that the door is open.  It's letting you know that you've left the keys in the ignition as you're leaving the car.

See U.S. Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard (FMVSS) No. 114 for more details.

(We wouldn't want someone to sneak in and steal it, after you leave, because you forgot to take the keys., would we?)

Mike

Or lock your keys in the car.  Don't ask me how I know...

Rusty

What went wrong here, if anything?

Generally with mass-produced goods here are the marketing/engineering tasks:

II. Implementing a Design

1. Engineers don't choose product features. For 99.9% of all products this is a marketing department's task.
2. The marketing department generally queries potential customers beforehand for proposed product features through surveys, focus groups, or individual interviews with a select subset of potential customers.  It is always cost-prohibitive to determine from every potential customer what their individual preferences are.
3. Engineers simply implement what they're told. Occasionally they might be asked for their two-cents worth, or in the worst case have to give it without being asked when a feature, as described, is clearly ridiculous, or impossible to implement within cost targets.
4. After design is complete engineers and technicians are responsible for testing to make sure the product does what they were told to make it do (verification testing) and fixing any non-conformances.
5. Before production starts someone, usually a different set of engineers and technicians, is responsible for testing to make sure the product does what it needs to do (validation testing), that is, to check whether the features that the marketing department requested actually meet the customers' needs.
6. After sales begin the marketing department has responsibility for compiling, reviewing and proposing any needed changes going forward. Was the target hit? Have they received any complaints? Does the feature set need to be changed or updated?

All of these tasks cost money.  In my experience, admittedly biased because I'm an engineer, the marketing department is often, maybe too often, allowed to take guesses instead of doing the detailed studies in order to keep costs down.

BTW -- There are also unique situations, occasionally, where engineers do the marketing work themselves, but only with highly-engineered, usually one-of-a-kind products, meant for custom applications, for which their "customers" are also expected to be engineers.  In these cases it is always required to determine from every potential customer what their individual preferences are.  This is clearly not one of them, or is it?.

Mike

Hogges look at Blake Morris's post. I would do it a little different that would suite your needs with the location of your shelf layout. Install a remote switch to the speaker that you could turn on and off from the ground. Evan Design has them cheap and it is not that difficult to install. the remote switch sensor is small and I'm  sure would fit in your tender. The remote is also small (smaller than a credit card) just place it in the same place or tether it to your LC remote.

Please no reply's from the engineers out there

OK guys....some of you aren't helping because you think it is cute to make fun of the OP's dilemma.  Sounds like some of you need to go run your trains and stay off the forum for a while.  I am going to close the thread not because of the OP's question, but because it is going off topic.  I think enough suggestions have been made that are useful so the horse is dead now.