Lionel 0-27 switches are sparking and causing shorts?

Sparking on the outside rails is normal with 1122/1122E/5121/5122 type switches due to the non-derail mechanism & circuitry. The wheels of the train complete the circuit to trigger the solenoid coils, which are "live" all the time on this design(which is different from the 022 style switch where the coils switch off when not actually moving the points).

Thanks ROB for the reply.  I understand what you are saying.  When the engine goes over the switch it will cause the engine to slow and then the engine will pick up speed again to normal speed.  This gets annoying and is there anything I can do to remedy this, and keep the engine going at a steady speed?

What transformer are you using?

When I used to have those Lionel O27 switches, I encountered the same sparking issue with my first 2 MTH conventional engines.   I remember bringing it up for discussion here and someone advised me to get smaller pickup rollers.  I did that and it helped a lot.

I also agree with Bob in that since the switches have no "I'm already switched" capability, when your engine runs over the switch the coils try to activate even though they don't have to.

- walt

Narrower rollers will help with center rail arcing/shorts.

With my 1122E switches, I had problems with sparking  when I switched over to #91 breakers. As they are VERY sensitive, they would trip when that happened. To solve that issue, I look for the exact spot where the spark occurs (usually where a roller is contacting the center rail and also just touching an outside rail) and I coat the spot with brush-on Super Glue. Problem solved. I would usually put a small piece of electrical tape on there first to make sure it was the spot and then remove it and hit it with the glue. 

Roger

ROGER thank you for the advice.  I will try that, with the electrical tape then the glue. 

ROB, transformer is a CW80 but I also tried a Z750 with the same results.

Thank you GUYZ for the advice.

Yes, the CW-80 is why I asked. It will go into "foldback" mode when these shorts occur, impacting the train speed more so than with a 1033/1044, for example.

Rob,

  I'm thinking ahead for when I build my next layout. If using an LW or ZW transformer, with the same switches, what issues could there be?

Thanks,

Tom

I have 24 of them on my current layout powered by a ZW and have no issues. If the rollers are the culprit shorting the center rail to ground, then that should be addressed on a case-by-case basis, attempting a fix on the loco(s) first(a lot easier than fixing 24 turnouts).

I have a small door layout with the 42 path O27 switches.  I use the electrical tape method.  I notice that my K-Line A5 works fine, but my MTH diesel switchers tend to have center rail arcing.  I also have some trouble with my 0-8-0  LC engines with random whistle and some arcing.  I really am starting to dislike the O27 switch.  I used to have them on my bigger layout when I can convenetional with a ZW.  They worked in that setup, but everything was less sensitive to minor shorts. 

The 42" variants are very problematic with the center rail shorting.

All good information above.

I've minimized use of non-derailing O27 switches because of these issues. I currently have only one 1122E switch in use, set up with fixed-voltage input and capacitor-discharge power supply which prevents heavy momentary current draw when the brainless non-derailing function triggers - plus I have a switch to turn off power to that. I've adapted some O22 switches for O27 layouts because they have a superior "intelligent" non-derailing function.

My Marx 333 loco was shorting ground to the center rail on the 1122 switch in one direction because the wheel gear bumps the center rail blob of the switch. I used some electrical tape on the switch to stop that. Cars with sloppy wheel gauge (especially old tinplate cars) can also cause shorts when going through some switch frogs.

Ace, could you provide a bit more info on the capacitor-discharge power supply you mentioned? What is it, how is it wired yo your switch, etc.? Thanks!

As it relates to the sparking issues on O27 track, if they can't be fixed what is the new version of the 1122 with non-derailing?  Or do all O27 tubular switches spark regardless?  TW

As it relates to the sparking issues on O27 switches, they aren't broken, so they don't need to be "fixed". It's they way they are designed. The capacitive discharge circuit used to charge a capacitor for the power to throw the switch does cut the current to the switch motor solenoids so the incessant buzzing & sparking stops while traversing the switch or parking on it. You can search for & perform this modification which eliminates the buzzing... the process is described on other forums.

All versions of the 1122 with non-derailing are of the same architecture, including the 42" variants. 

The K-Line O27 tubular switches do not spark like the Lionel as they have internal microswitches that shut down power to the coils once the switch is thrown.

Hi ROB,

  That is what I did, I changed to the K-Line switch and since then had no problems with that layout.

Thx Rob, succinct as usual. "Fix" was inappropriate, ameliorate, more accurate.  I have found video and warched the conversion of an 1122 to constant voltage, but the switch will still spark, right? If so, I think I will use another switch.  TW

ADCX Rob posted:

 

The K-Line O27 tubular switches do not spark like the Lionel as they have internal microswitches that shut down power to the coils once the switch is thrown.

I've got the low-profile, DZ-1000-like K-0265 & K-0266 switches. They obviously don't use solenoids. Rob, are you saying that the earlier generation K-0265/6 switches—the ones with the incandescent bulbs—also shut down power once the switch is thrown, so that you can safely park cars on the switches?

That is correct - the circuitry is the same - those K-0265 & K-0266 switches you have are just motor driven instead of solenoid driven. The solenoid/lamp housings are Humongous, though.

TedW posted:

...I have found video and warched the conversion of an 1122 to constant voltage, but the switch will still spark, right? If so, I think I will use another switch...

The ground & control rails will still spark, and the solenoids will activate.

My 1971 layout has 24 1122/1122E switches and it actually kind of adds to the charm of a traditional toy train layout with all the mechanization noises and a spark flying out now & then amid the drone of 4 loops of trains running and the accessories whirring, buzzing, & growling.

It's not really a high-rail or switching layout, and I've been very lucky that these switches all work well w/ track voltage, so parking on switches while powered up has never been an issue, the only time that really comes up is if the train is at a nearby accessory in neutral for the brief duration of the accessory cycle.

I am experimenting with cutting down 1122 switches to 60° for mainline crossovers to see how that looks from a more highrail perspective, due to the relentless reliability and small footprint, and if it looks acceptable to me I will go with the fixed DC voltage and CD actuation for snappy & quiet operation.