Lionel 6-28051 EM-1 with Super Chuffer II instlled Stopped smoking Completely

Who installed the Super-Chuffer?  Did it just stop working, or did it never work after the install?

I installed it John it was my 3rd one, you guided me previously with my Mallet and my EM-1. I am thinking that the smoke resistor I used was getting too hot. I bought one from Hennings, and 2 off of eBay. I am starting to wonder if the 2 I bought off eBay were not actually the correct resistor. As we discussed previously I wondered if the Mega Steam was causing the burnt batting. Now I am leaning towards the smoke resistor itself that I used. Could this have damaged the motor control board ?

I apologize I did not answer your question properly. The Super Chuffer worked very well at first. Then the smoke was not the same. Tore it back apart discovered burnt batting. We discussed  the smoke fluids. I cleaned the resistor replaced the batting worked great again. Then quit all together. Took it back apart batting burned,won't work at all anymore.

Simple test, read the resistance across the smoke resistor,…..that will tell the story, …..also, how did you wire the smoke resistor?….if this is a TMCC EM1, did you bypass the smoke reg?….if so, did you wire the hot side to the radio board?…The other side is chassis ground,….…The hot wire either the pin on the mother board, or right to the header, …and lastly, did you go through the on/off switch with the hot wire?…If the super chuffer does not see the resisitor working, the fan will be in-op,….other features you may or may not have hooked up on the super chuffer will still be working, such as cab light, rule 17 lighting, etc,….however, the smoke fan wants to see that signal coming from the heater,…….if the heater circuit is complete, the chuffer senses this, and says ok, turn on the fan ….

Pat

@Secarider posted:

I installed it John it was my 3rd one, you guided me previously with my Mallet and my EM-1. I am thinking that the smoke resistor I used was getting too hot. I bought one from Hennings, and 2 off of eBay. I am starting to wonder if the 2 I bought off eBay were not actually the correct resistor. As we discussed previously I wondered if the Mega Steam was causing the burnt batting. Now I am leaning towards the smoke resistor itself that I used. Could this have damaged the motor control board ?

If you used too low a value smoke resistor, you likely cooked the triac on the R2LC.  That can be replaced.  Also, if you have a model with the smoke AC Regulator, you MUST use an 8 ohm resistor.  If you're running with no regulator, the resistor value should be 20 to 27 ohms.

Ok John thank you. I tried switching the R2LC board. It did not make any difference.  I will take the R2LC board out of mine and try it. I know mine works. If it still does not make it work. Is there anything that it could have damaged on the motor control board ? Swapping them will take some time.

Funny, I just restored my EM-1's smoke functionality this weekend after attending to some other repairs (slippy shaft). I am using John's Super Chuffer 1 (rev. 2) so it doesn't have the smoke on sense but works fine without it.

This being early TMCC, it's pretty basic. There is no ACRG, the element (and the funny little 5VDC fan circuit) runs right off the 4amp triac on the R2LC. The original Lionel elements were 27ohm and didn't get very hot but burnt up and out probably due to overzealous smoke boosting. For how cool they ran, they were pretty fragile. If the fan motor didn't work, you could pretty figure the element opened up. If it's open, the triac won't conduct properly and the Super Chuffer 2 you have probably doesn't sense the smoke output being on.

I mod the old 8057 units with a 15ohm MTH element and I heat-tape the bottom of the PC board that comprises the top of the unit. It runs hot like it should, the triac can deal with the increased current and it doesn't need boost. It will burn through a lot of fluid as it should, since it's running nice and hot and once the stream peters out, I turn it off so it doesn't scorch the dried batting. Someone out there used to have 17ohm resistors but I remember them being fragile too.

Please excuse the vertical filming, this is a Youtube short:

Well, that's a lot of smoke!   I use 20 ohm resistors as I've measured the triac temperature and decided that 80C was as hot as I wanted it to get after sustained running.  I did a couple with the MTH 16 ohm resistors, but the triac was over 100C after a few minutes, and I figured that was pushing my luck.  But they did indeed smoke prodigiously!

@Secarider posted:

Ok John thank you. I tried switching the R2LC board. It did not make any difference.  I will take the R2LC board out of mine and try it. I know mine works. If it still does not make it work. Is there anything that it could have damaged on the motor control board ? Swapping them will take some time.

The motor control board really doesn't enter into the picture.  Since this is a basic smoke unit with no regulator, it's just the smoke output of the R2LC through the smoke switch and on to the smoke unit.  If you've swapped the R2LC and the smoke unit, I'm at a loss, it must be wiring.  I suppose it's possible you somehow cooked the Super-Chuffer, that would prevent the fan from running.

Pat is the older TMCC EM-1 6-28051.  I  Wired the hot to the wires from the collector rolled that were in the wire nut. I soldered a ground wire to one of the eyelets that screwed to a chassis  ground. I soldered a wire to the smoke motor negative, and a wire to the smoke motor positive. And I unplugged the motor wires from the smoke board.  I soldered the smoke heater wire, to the green wire that plugs into the smoke unit board.. I soldered the chuff wire to the mother board that leads to the chuff switch.  It seem to work very well, the chuff and smoke were great.  But the resistor I used that was supposed to be a 20 OHM kept burning a charred black spot on the batting. At first I thought it may have been the Mega Steam smoke fluid. But now I think probably the resistor may have been too hot. I will have to buy a new multi meter that can test OHMs also. Where do you get the parts to fix the smoke triac on the R2Lc board ?

I thought about that John, but like I said I removed the Super Chuffer completely after the smoke unit stopped working.. And I put the locomotive back to stock ,with a brand new 27 OHM smoke unit. I replaced the board, the housing with motor, and the batting.  And still the smoke unit no longer turns on. Where can I buy parts to fix the R2LC board. Or do I need to ship it out for repair.

The idea is to run the smoke long enough to annoy myself, then shut it off. Works well for filming. I do remember the triacs getting warm back when I used to play with the smoke more often than I do now. I actually had one unsolder itself haha. I don't know if one could find a heatsink that would fit on those triacs that would also suit its location on the R2LC. A 17-20ohm element would probably be ideal if the element was durable enough. Where do you find 20ohm elements? I have a bunch of 27s now. I really don't plan on running the smoke much more outside of filming a few puffy run-bys.

@Secarider posted:

I thought about that John, but like I said I removed the Super Chuffer completely after the smoke unit stopped working.. And I put the locomotive back to stock ,with a brand new 27 OHM smoke unit. I replaced the board, the housing with motor, and the batting.  And still the smoke unit no longer turns on. Where can I buy parts to fix the R2LC board. Or do I need to ship it out for repair.

Here is the smoke triac:

https://www.mouser.com/Product...DHEmY1YaAuRUEALw_wcB

Thank you Norm ordered some this afternoon.

@Norm Charbonneau posted:

Where do you find 20ohm elements? I have a bunch of 27s now.

Norm, I'm part of the DIY crowd.   I buy these 5W 20 ohm resistors and crack the ceramic shell in a vise, out pops a perfect 20 ohm smoke resistor.  When I buy 25 of them, they're only 30 cents each.

Stackpole CB5JB20R0

John,

I bought Digi-Key SQP500JB-22R    Part Number 22W-5-ND   RES 22 OHM 5% 5W AXIAL

Did I buy the wrong one

@Secarider posted:

John,

I bought Digi-Key SQP500JB-22R    Part Number 22W-5-ND   RES 22 OHM 5% 5W AXIAL

Did I buy the wrong one

I think you want wire wound not

The one that @gunrunnerjohn posted was specifically wire wound just like what MTH and Lionel both typically use.

Corrected link https://www.digikey.com/en/pro...nc/CB5JB20R0/1740804

The reasoning is, metal oxide film- just by name, is not as thick (it's a film) of metal VS resistance wire. Since we are exposing the element directly to wicking material to generate smoke, the film seems to be a poorer and likely to fail choice IMO.

Typical wire wound resistor used in smoke units

@Vernon Barry posted:

I think you want wire wound not

Composition

Metal Oxide Film

The one that @gunrunnerjohn posted was specifically wire wound just like what MTH and Lionel both typically use.

https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/yageo/SQP500JB-2K0/18710?utm_adgroup=Battery%20Products&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Dynamic%20Search_EN_Product&utm_term=&utm_content=Battery%20Products&gclid=Cj0KCQjwla-hBhD7ARIsAM9tQKugbcN2djAidN2z65-qjfglrbGJ0fTzU_2f-nwpxgLEa4tE7SdmWMgaAmDdEALw_wcB

Vernon, I don't know how you got crossed up, but you're pointing to a 2K resistor!  Again, note the link I posted, it's a 20 ohm 5W wirewound.  I crack the shell to break out the actual resistor, it's a perfect match for the smoke resistors.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Norm, I'm part of the DIY crowd.   I buy these 5W 20 ohm resistors and crack the ceramic shell in a vise, out pops a perfect 20 ohm smoke resistor.  When I buy 25 of them, they're only 30 cents each.

Stackpole CB5JB20R0

You bought the correct type, just a bit higher in value. FWIW, that will work fine, 20 ohms is the lowest value I use nowadays. As 22 ohms, it's only 10% more, and will smoke better than the Lionel 27 ohm resistor.  See the correct link in my linked post right above.

@Secarider posted:

I bought Digi-Key SQP500JB-22R    Part Number 22W-5-ND   RES 22 OHM 5% 5W AXIAL

Did I buy the wrong one

Somehow, using the specific wording, that's the search I used.

@Secarider posted:

I bought Digi-KeySQP500JB-22R  VS Part Number 22W-5-ND   RES 22 OHM 5% 5W AXIAL = correct 22 Ohm wire wound

Vernon, I never use the sponsored links in Google, they frequently take you to the wrong things!

Good tip John. If I repair more smokers I may get a few. If my engines have smoke units, I try to make sure they work well even if they will be off 99.5% of the time. The EM-1 was in the shop this past week so I went through the whole thing. Now my basement reeks of burnt cinnamon rolls. My EM-1's smokebox looks like it has the meat sweats.

What are people using for batting these days? Once that stuff is cooked, it really needs to go, otherwise it stinks like moldy socks.

My favorite wick material is similar to what MTH uses and sells, just in bulk. Fiberglass braided wick, that I cut into 5 inch pieces and unbraid to individual straight strands, then fold into a little wick pillow.

Dan's Daughters' Containers 1/8" x 5' Foot Round Fiberglass Wick Kerosene Oil Lamp Lanterns Replacement Wicks Torch Wine Bottle Candle (18) (5')

the MTH part $2 each for 3.5 inches.

I use the same stuff as Vernon, I bought it a few years ago.  Works great, and the price is right.  Just search for Dan's Daughters' Containers 1/8" x 5' Foot Round Fiberglass Wick on Google, I found it on Amazon.

I enjoyed this thread on troubleshooting electronics. Thank you to the OP and all the participants. I appreciate the link to the data sheet for the triac.  To some, the link might simply look like a pointer to a replacement part. But the nature of this particular link is that it provides the hobbyist a departure point to go out on the web and study the device, applications, and related circuitry in any amount of detail desired. It’s a nice gift.

I also watched the embedded video of the mighty B&O EM-1 belching phenomenal amounts of smoke all over Norm Charbonneau’s layout. I found this puzzling because my understanding from reading a number of postings is that Norm loathes smoke. I began wondering if vandals broke into Norm’s layout with a couple quarts of smoke fluid and got a party started. Then I read the posts below where Norm confessed how aggravating the smoke was in making the video:

The idea is to run the smoke long enough to annoy myself, then shut it off. Works well for filming.

Now my basement reeks of burnt cinnamon rolls. My EM-1's smokebox looks like it has the meat sweats.

What are people using for batting these days? Once that stuff is cooked, it really needs to go, otherwise it stinks like moldy socks.

Let’s hoist our beers to Norm who is willing to suffer a smoking steam engine for the sake of Art. It is said that van Gogh lived a tortured existence even as he created some of his most brilliant masterpieces. But did he ever endure the trials of inhaling O Scale locomotive soot or batting that reeks of moldy socks? I most assuredly tell you, NOT EVEN ONCE. Norm ventures where even the greatest masters dared not tread.

I wanted to thank you guys for all your help,and follow up with my results. I worked for hours on this locomotive. First I removed the Super Chuffer, and replaced it with another brand new one. That did not work, so I removed it and put a brand new stock smoke unit,  bowl with motor, brand new board with the 27 OHM resistor. That didn't work either. Then I replaced every board one at a time, that didn't work either. I tested the smoke switch, wiring,and  plugs. Still the smoke motor would not run. I was completely out of options,  I could find nothing wrong with the locomotive.  So I took the stock smoke unit out and tested that with a 9 volt battery, it did not run. I'm like what the heck. I took the board off the smoke unit and put the 9 volt battery back on the motor and it ran great. Then I looked at the gasket. The gasket was swollen up with smoke fluid just enough to stop the fan from running. Lionel no longer sells the gasket, so I reuse them to rebuild the smoke units. I pushed the fan down the motor shaft a little, put it back together. I tested it with a battery and it worked. I put it back in the locomotive, and the locomotive worked. I took it all back apart again, put the Super Chuffer back in it. Put a new board back on the smoke unit with a 20 OHM smoke resistor. And the locomotive works great. The whole ordeal was caused by a swollen bowl gasket stopping the fan from turning. Had I known I could have repaired the locomotive in a few minutes. Live and learn

Wow what an ordeal.  Well at least you now have the knowledge to go into that engine and do replacements on what ever is bad.  Glad you got it working right.  We all learned something with this thread.

Those little lessons are the ones you don't forget, I'll bet that one will never bite you again!

Thank god the motor stall didn’t take out the super chuffer!…….that’d been my luck, …..I would have blown up the super chuffer, the chuff generator, the radio board, the mother board, the motor driver, and all the wiring,……all because the fan  motor stalled,……so you are lucky, …..count your blessings,…..😉

Pat

Pat and or John,

Does the super chuffer have any over load protection against a stalled smoke fan motor?

That’s funny I just had a gasket stopping the fan motor on a tmc smoke unit. Smoothing the gasket and tapping down fan blade a bit did the trick.

@DaveGG posted:

Pat and or John,

Does the super chuffer have any over load protection against a stalled smoke fan motor?

A stalled motor won't damage the Super-Chuffer.  If it draws enough current, the power supply will go into current limiting mode and the Super-Chuffer will cease to function correctly.  The FET's that drive the motor have multiple times the current handling capacity as the maximum current capability of the power supply, so they can drag it down without killing anything.  I've had a number of reports of issues with motors, and replacing the motor is the fix.

Thanks John.