Lionel 610-8057-200 Smoke Unit Install/Upgrade

So what would be the correct way to wire this, and have synchronized chuffing and puffing?

Thanks

Iv'e found some older posts discussing similar questions but have not really found an answer.  I would appreciate any help.

Also, in looking at the old TAS smoke unit instructions, they installed a diode to isolate the smoke unit from RailSounds. 

Thanks,

Jim

The correct way, at least IMO, is the Super-Chuffer, and to generate the 4-chuffs, I obviously like the Chuff-Generator.  The magnets and reed switch are a major PITA to get working right, which is why I developed a better alternative.

I may be a tiny bit biased as those are products I developed, but they do a great job.   I think you'll find that simply tying the smoke motor to the chuff switch will probably not be nearly as satisfactory.  The Super-Chuffer will give you better defined chuffing, smoke at idle, and optionally you get the lighting effects.  Here's a couple of clips with the Super-Chuffer and Chuff-Generator.

Thanks.

I went to your website; I don't see directions on installation of the Supper-Chuffer.  Can you please provide?

Is that a Lionel or MTH camelback?

Thanks.

That's the MTH Railking Camelback, it was obviously upgraded to TMCC with the Super-Chuffer.

I've attached the instructions and a couple of useful configuration diagrams.

Every time I see a Super Chuffer demo I grow a bit fonder of them. That really was a great idea, along with the Chuff Generator too. Almost makes me want to buy a TMCC steam engine so I can install one. And I am a big diesel fan! 

Go for it, you need at least one good steamer.

Looks great,. Just viewed several youtube videos.

Just ordered one of each.

Thanks

-Jim

I may be starting to see one on the horizon, off in the distance...slowly getting closer... 

What you're seeing is all the smoke from the Super-Chuffer!

This is all new to me, can these be used in any make of engine Lionel or MTH? How easy is it to install? Is there more information on these units, besides the demos on U tube?

Pretty incredible!

Jeff, can you be a little more specific?  As for the Super-Chuffer and the Chuff-Generator, they're designed for Lionel TMCC environments. Adding the fan driven smoke to a locomotive that has a mechanical smoke unit is largely a mechanical task with some simple wiring.

I posted some documentation in the TMCC Documentation thread about these products and their installation.

Super-Chuffer, Chuff-Generator, & Installation Diagrams

In the future I can point to this post and not have to upload multiple copies of these items.

John: I really meant that I was just wondering if this could be replaced in the Lionel and MTH engines that are more in todays offerings, and not something post war. It was pretty neat to see these items on U-tube and how things became enhanced. I had another thought just now. I have a couple of the Weaver Milwaukee Road Hiawathas 4-4-2s, and they only have the Seuth smoke units (??) are these possible? Just tossing things out, as I had not heard of these systems before. Thank you for your reply.

Jeff

I do a lot of brass upgrades, most get a fan driven smoke unit to replace the Seuthe smoke unit.

So do you offer this service?

Yep, I usually do it in conjunction with a full upgrade.  You do need something to drive the fan driven unit.

Jeff B. Haertlein posted:

John: I really meant that I was just wondering if this could be replaced in the Lionel and MTH engines that are more in todays offerings, and not something post war. It was pretty neat to see these items on U-tube and how things became enhanced. I had another thought just now. I have a couple of the Weaver Milwaukee Road Hiawathas 4-4-2s, and they only have the Seuth smoke units (??) are these possible? Just tossing things out, as I had not heard of these systems before. Thank you for your reply.

 

Jeff

Jeff,  You do not need this for MTH, in facts John's design pay a royalty to MTH.  MTH Has adjustable and fully integrated Smoke and sounds in their DCS based boards.  Newer Legacy also has better smoke and integration.

So John's application as he stated is for Lionel and others with TMCC that did not have this capability. 

So depending on what engine and what upgrade you want determines your approach.  For example a PS-3 upgrade to a Brass engine would not need any of John's components at the PS-3 board does all that.  An ERR TMCC upgrade to that engine would need John's product to get those enhance smoke and chuff features.  G

What he said.

GGG posted:

Jeff B. Haertlein posted:

John: I really meant that I was just wondering if this could be replaced in the Lionel and MTH engines that are more in todays offerings, and not something post war. It was pretty neat to see these items on U-tube and how things became enhanced. I had another thought just now. I have a couple of the Weaver Milwaukee Road Hiawathas 4-4-2s, and they only have the Seuth smoke units (??) are these possible? Just tossing things out, as I had not heard of these systems before. Thank you for your reply.

 

Jeff

Jeff,  You do not need this for MTH, in facts John's design pay a royalty to MTH.  MTH Has adjustable and fully integrated Smoke and sounds in their DCS based boards.  Newer Legacy also has better smoke and integration.

So John's application as he stated is for Lionel and others with TMCC that did not have this capability. 

So depending on what engine and what upgrade you want determines your approach.  For example a PS-3 upgrade to a Brass engine would not need any of John's components at the PS-3 board does all that.  An ERR TMCC upgrade to that engine would need John's product to get those enhance smoke and chuff features.  G

OK thanks for that bit of information.!!!

I'll throw in one bit of advice if you do go ahead with the 610-8057-200 smoke unit, which is a good smoke unit BTW, after a couple of mods. It comes with a 27 ohm resistor as standard, and this doesn't get hot enough to make diddely smoke. I suggest you change this out to a 20 ohm, 18 ohm, or even a 16 ohm MTH resistor. Second, if it has a woven fiberglass sleeve around the resistor, dump that with the resistor. Third, drill out the fan air intake hole to about 3/16" diameter or so. These mods allow the 8057 to make great smoke.

You want the smoke unit to add about 0.6 to 0.7 amps transformer load when switched on, using TMCC with 18 VAC track voltage. This equates to 11-13 watts power and will make lots of smoke from my experience.

Rod

Actually, the 16 ohm resistor will frequently cook the R2LC triac, it dissipates too much power with that low a resistance.  With a 20 ohm resistor, it runs in the 65-70C range, about all I'd push it.  With a 16 ohm resistor, I was reading over 90C, way too hot!

Just completed my third TMCC steam loco upgrade to John's SC CG conversion; I am blown by the smoke operation and chuff sound; it's the coolest effect!  Great product!  Highly recommend it.  Falcon70

So here it is...

Modified 610-8057-200 Smoke unit.  The 5v circuit was unnecessary, and space was required, so it was cut off.  I used a modified Lionel bracket for the #68 E-6 to mount the smoke unit.  I tweaked it per the suggestions of many; drilled out the intake hole, installed a 20 ohm resistor.  A wad of white fiberglass insulation was used for batting (it has worked well for me in the past) on "puffer" repairs) The smoke funnel is a 3/16" brass compression sleeve, with the PC board reamed to match. 

I had to fashion a new bracket for an LED headlamp.  I added LED marker lamps.

 For operational improvements, a Cruise Commander M upgrade from the Electric Railroad Company was installed.  

For the real special effects, a Chuff-Generator and Supper-Chuffer from John Will & Associates was installed.  

And then I squeezed all 10 pounds back into the 5 pound bag and here it is.

I could not be more satisfied.  Many  thanks to John and Ken for their product support. 

I will be replacing the bulbs with LED's in the tender,  use Neolube to tone down the the handrails, driver rims and rods, add engineer and fireman figures, and then call it done.

Then on to the next one. 

Lookin' good, and it is a pretty tight fit in there.  Nice to know it will fit in the Atlantic.

John, I got my fan unit installed last night in my Steam Special. You mentioned above that a 16 ohm smoke element to too small and will create too much current for the R2LC and cook it, Would an 18 ohm smoke element be to small also? 

Stick to 20 ohms or larger.

I used an 18 ohm on a few of my smoke upgrades, and no issues have come up. But John is more experienced than I am, so it's probably best to follow with the 20 ohm.

Long term when you find the R2LC smoke triac has unsoldered itself due to excessive heat dissipation, I want you to remember this thread.  

Actually, that typically only happens when the smoke element overheats and shorts, then all the current comes back to the triac.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Stick to 20 ohms or larger.

Copy, Will do.

Jim Harrington posted:

So what would be the correct way to wire this, and have synchronized chuffing and puffing?

Thanks

There are actually many correct ways to do this. One adds to GRJ's retirement account the other adds to your retirement fund by the money you have saved. The smoke unit you selected with the 5V regulator for the fan you could have rewired it to drive a simple DPST relay. Connect your chuff switch to one side of the relay coil, connect the other side of the relay coil to the 5V regulator output. Using one pair of  relay contacts connect one to common and its mate to motor ground after removing the trace that grounds the motor. The relay will now be closing the motor circuit instead of the PC board ground.

Now connect the other relay contacts pair, one to common (pin 3-4 R2LC) and the other to pin 17 on the R2LC (chuff input). You now have perfectly synch puff and chuff. Reed relays are about 8 bucks.

The least elegant way is to use two reed switches, one for fan and the other for chuff. You still need a regulated 5V for the fan but that would have been available on that particular smoke unit.

A third way involves a pair of transistors to isolate chuff input from fan drive. again a few bucks in parts.

Pete

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Long term when you find the R2LC smoke triac has unsoldered itself due to excessive heat dissipation, I want you to remember this thread.  

Actually, that typically only happens when the smoke element overheats and shorts, then all the current comes back to the triac.

I'm guessing that's what happened with the K-Line NYC Mikado you showed me last year here? If that's the case, I'll be purchasing some 20's soon.

Norton posted:

Jim Harrington posted:

So what would be the correct way to wire this, and have synchronized chuffing and puffing?

Thanks

There are actually many correct ways to do this. One adds to GRJ's retirement account the other adds to your retirement fund by the money you have saved. The smoke unit you selected with the 5V regulator for the fan you could have rewired it to drive a simple DPST relay. Connect your chuff switch to one side of the relay coil, connect the other side of the relay coil to the 5V regulator output. Using one pair of  relay contacts connect one to common and its mate to motor ground after removing the trace that grounds the motor. The relay will now be closing the motor circuit instead of the PC board ground.

Now connect the other relay contacts pair, one to common (pin 3-4 R2LC) and the other to pin 17 on the R2LC (chuff input). You now have perfectly synch puff and chuff. Reed relays are about 8 bucks.

The least elegant way is to use two reed switches, one for fan and the other for chuff. You still need a regulated 5V for the fan but that would have been available on that particular smoke unit.

A third way involves a pair of transistors to isolate chuff input from fan drive. again a few bucks in parts.

Pete

Of course, none of those ways gives you the sharply defined chuffing that the dynamic braking of the Super-Chuffer gives you.  The motor coasts to a stop and so only slow chuffing is recognizable.  Also, the chuffs are as long as the chuff switch is closed.  If it's only closed a short time, you get short chuffs, if it's closed for most of the cycle, you don't see any breaks.  Finally, you get no smoke at idle unless the chuff switch happens to land on the closed part of the rotation.  We won't bother to add the lighting effects that the Super-Chuffer gives you.

There's a reason I developed the Super-Chuffer, those methods didn't yield satisfactory results, at least IMO.

Mikado 4501 posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Long term when you find the R2LC smoke triac has unsoldered itself due to excessive heat dissipation, I want you to remember this thread.  

Actually, that typically only happens when the smoke element overheats and shorts, then all the current comes back to the triac.

I'm guessing that's what happened with the K-Line NYC Mikado you showed me last year here? If that's the case, I'll be purchasing some 20's soon.

 

No, AFAIK, that locomotive is still smoking fine with it's 20 ohm resistor.

Norton posted:

Jim Harrington posted:

So what would be the correct way to wire this, and have synchronized chuffing and puffing?

Thanks

There are actually many correct ways to do this. One adds to GRJ's retirement account the other adds to your retirement fund by the money you have saved. The smoke unit you selected with the 5V regulator for the fan you could have rewired it to drive a simple DPST relay. Connect your chuff switch to one side of the relay coil, connect the other side of the relay coil to the 5V regulator output. Using one pair of  relay contacts connect one to common and its mate to motor ground after removing the trace that grounds the motor. The relay will now be closing the motor circuit instead of the PC board ground.

Now connect the other relay contacts pair, one to common (pin 3-4 R2LC) and the other to pin 17 on the R2LC (chuff input). You now have perfectly synch puff and chuff. Reed relays are about 8 bucks.

The least elegant way is to use two reed switches, one for fan and the other for chuff. You still need a regulated 5V for the fan but that would have been available on that particular smoke unit.

A third way involves a pair of transistors to isolate chuff input from fan drive. again a few bucks in parts.

Pete

The results with the Super-Chuffer are great, and I would highly recommend it,in concert with the Chuff-Generator.

That said, my next planned upgrade is really tight; not sure if that solution will fit.  If it won't I would like  try one of the options you suggested.  Can you advise on a model/part number for the suggested relay option, as well as for the  transistors and resistors in the schematic?

Thanks,

-Jim

Also, can you clarify the "Square Wave In" input; is the the chuff switch?

Thanks.

The square wave in would be the chuff switch input.

Thanks.

Why square wave?  Isn't the chuff input switch connection to frame ground?

It's just the chuff switch, I can't explain why it's labeled square wave.  It's kind of a square wave, it's either ground or logic high...

Norton posted:

A third way involves a pair of transistors to isolate chuff input from fan drive. again a few bucks in parts.

Pete

Will PN2222 transistors work in the above?  (If not, what will?)

Thanks

The 2222 will work fine for that circuit.