Lionel #91 Circuit Breaker: Pre War vs Post War

I actually like the pre-war one better than the post-war one.  I use my Pre-War breaker on the test bench for fast action.

That being said, I don't think either of these are the best choices for modern stuff.  Personally, I think the PH180 is more than sufficient protection.  I'd probably lose the Z-1000 brick with it's slow breaker and add another PH180.

My pre-war #91 trips right at 3A on the low current tap and 4A on the high current tap.  This doesn't appear to be sufficient headroom for normal operation.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I actually like the pre-war one better than the post-war one.  I use my Pre-War breaker on the test bench for fast action.

That being said, I don't think either of these are the best choices for modern stuff.  Personally, I think the PH180 is more than sufficient protection.  I'd probably lose the Z-1000 brick with it's slow breaker and add another PH180.

My pre-war #91 trips right at 3A on the low current tap and 4A on the high current tap.  This doesn't appear to be sufficient headroom for normal operation.

I bought the Z-1000, for my third power source, to power my sidings, because I thought that I had read that that brick also had a very fast breaker.
I have seen in practice, however, that this is far from the case.

I am not sure what you are suggesting, regarding using another PH-180.

I have two PH-180's connected to my ZW, that will  power my two main loops, and I need a third power source for my sidings.
I would love to use another PH-180, as you have suggested, but what transformer would I connect it to, other than another ZW, which would be complete overkill?
Does Lionel make another single transformer that would be powered by a PH-180
I see the 6-37947 GW-180.
Does this use the same PH-180 or is the GW-180 indicate a whole different brick?

I don't really want to run my sidings from either of the two secondary ZW controllers, as they are quite limited in features.
I also plan to use those secondary controllers for switches and accessories.

PLEASE NOTE: I will be taking power thru a DPDT switch.
1. Side 1 will be fed by the transformer for running Lionel Conventional and Lion Chief locomotives.
2. Side 2 will be fed, directly, from the PH-180, for that clean sigh wace, for running MTH DCS locomotives,

AFAIK, the GW-180 uses the same PH180 brick, but I don't actually have one to look at.

The fact is that I really don't want to by yet another transformer and have to sell my Z-1000, although, I would if it was the best thing.
So, in lieu of that, would there be a fast breaker, that would not be super expensive, that I could put in that circuit?
I have seen a lot of fast circuit breakers talked about here, so is there one that you might recommend?
Or would it really just b best to pull the trigger on a GW-180, and no added breaker?

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

AFAIK, the GW-180 uses the same PH180 brick, but I don't actually have one to look at.

Does anyone have any recommendations for a reasonably priced, fast acting, circuit breaker that I could put in the line just down from the Z1000 brick?

If you're referring to the Airpax Snapac "Instant" breaker, for the Z1000, 5A would be the right match.  They're $12.66 if buying one or two, plus shipping.

Here's the link:

5 Amp   PP11-0-5.00A-OB-V   https://www.onlinecomponents.c...00aobv-10090638.html

@SteveH posted:

If you're referring to the Airpax Snapac "Instant" breaker, for the Z1000, 5A would be the right match.  They're $12.66 if buying one or two, plus shipping.

Here's the link:

5 Amp   PP11-0-5.00A-OB-V   https://www.onlinecomponents.c...00aobv-10090638.html

So then, This is the situation:
OPTION 1: I could sell the Z1000 and spend several hundred $ on a GW-180, which uses the PH180 (which I would rather not do)
OPTION 2: I can spend $25 and change on a pair of the Airpax Snapac circuit breaker, shown abofe, for the Z1000.

So, here is the $64,000 question:
From a protection point of view, how does Option 2 compare with Option 1?

If you don't need 180 Watts of power for your sidings from the PH180, then limiting the max current to 5A would offer more protection for the trains on those tracks, combined with TVS.  From another recent post, I saw that you already have TVS diodes connected to your ZWC outputs.

To my knowledge there have no been posts indicating which breaker is faster, but they are probably very close.  The trip time for the Airpax "Instant" is 0.1 second in a overload condition.

Also of note: with one Z1000 you'd only need one breaker.  The only reason I mentioned 2 was the pricing per unit for more than 2 is slightly less than buying 1 or 2.

@SteveH posted:

If you don't need 180 Watts of power for your sidings from the PH180, then limiting the max current to 5A would offer more protection for the trains on those tracks, combined with TVS.  From another recent post, I saw that you already have TVS diodes connected to your ZWC outputs.

To my knowledge there have no been posts indicating which breaker is faster, but they are probably very close.  The trip time for the Airpax "Instant" is 0.1 second in a overload condition.

Also of note: with one Z1000 you'd only need one breaker.  The only reason I mentioned 2 was the pricing per unit for more than 2 is slightly less than buying 1 or 2.

Thank you so much, Steve, for the info here and in several other threads that I have read,

Yes, I do have TVS diodes on all ZW as well as the Z1000 outputs.
I am also adding a TVS diode at each track power drop.
I may put one in each of my DCS locomotives, but don't quite have that process in my mind just yet.

I will be ordering a pair of the above 5 amp breakers today.
To your point of mentioning 2 each, they also only sell a minimum of 2 units.

Thanks again,
Roger

@RWL posted:

Thank you so much, Steve, for the info here and in several other threads that I have read,

Yes, I do have TVS diodes on all ZW as well as the Z1000 outputs.
I am also adding a TVS diode at each track power drop.
I may put one in each of my DCS locomotives, but don't quite have that process in my mind just yet.

I will be ordering a pair of the above 5 amp breakers today.
To your point of mentioning 2 each, they also only sell a minimum of 2 units.

Thanks again,
Roger

Roger, thanks for calling my attention to the qty. 2 min. order.  I've been ordering more for each type.

I would also note that @gunrunnerjohn has previously cautioned that using too many TVS diodes can degrade the DCS signal.  I'm not sure if you're there yet, but thought it worth mentioning.  Maybe he can offer more insight on that.

@SteveH posted:

Roger, thanks for calling my attention to the qty. 2 min. order.  I've been ordering more for each type.

I would also note that @gunrunnerjohn has previously cautioned that using too many TVS diodes can degrade the DCS signal.  I'm not sure if you're there yet, but thought it worth mentioning.  Maybe he can offer more insight on that.

I have not been aware of the fact that too many TVS diodes can degrade the DCS signal.
I have one on each Transformer output, and one on each track power drop, and there is only one power drop per block.
Thar is, in essence, 2 per power block.
If I were to add one to the DCS locos, that would be for all practical purposes 3 per power block.

BRW, the breakers are on order.
Thank you again for all of the help on this.

One last question: Is the best place for the circuit breaker closer to the transformer or closer to the track?
I am thinking of placing it right in the Hot wire of the pigtail, just beyond its connection to the factory barrel connector on the cable of the Z1000 brick.

Breaker location is better close to the transformer.  TVS is better as close as possible to the electronics you want to protect.

Too many TVS diodes was discussed in this Topic about 3/4 of the way down the page.

Here's the Link:   GOOD BREAKER

_

Thanks for the clarification, on position, and I will go up and check out the TVS info.

Thanks again.