Lionel Damaged on Arrival

Ouch...

@Greg from Texas posted:

So, I'm about 7 years into running O scale Lionel and MTH trains.

I started after some years of buying the RTR Christmas trains turned into my expanding to several Lionel Texas Special Trains. I began finding Lionel and then MTH trains on eBay that were new in the box and never run for half the original purchase price. And this was great, I expanded my collection of trains, which I run, for half the price. I cannot remember ever buying one of these 10-15-20-year-old trains that after pulling them out of the box and greasing them up and they run perfectly. (Of course, I learned to check for the old white battery on MTH)

Now after thinking I never would, I preorder a couple of these beautiful new Lionel legacies with great sound and smoke. A couple of months ago I received my brand new Legacy Penn. S-1 when I unwrapped it a screw fell out, then I found there were actually three screws missing from assembly. Still waiting on them.

Today I received my new Legacy Pacific "MKT"  and it has the little cap that sits over the whistle steam port. Looks like a magnet and a small seal hold it on. Lionel ships this with it on the train. So it easily comes loose. The top of the engine is ruined. There are tiny scratch marks all around the area. There are also some broken pieces on the engine.

A few months ago I order an ABA Texas & Pacific that was a warehouse find and the way it was packed, by lionel two of the smokestacks off. Lionel replaced them. But it was a huge deal

So, I can buy 20-year-old train new in the box...but Almost every new engine I preorder comes with an issue.

I have bought several MTH engines in the last couple of years and never had this experience.

Is this happening to others?

Greg

I had new reading f3b arrive missing magnets that hold hatch on, scratched up roof from it moving around, send it back, or buy in person.

Yes, I have had several Lionel engines arrive damaged in the last few years due to packaging. The newer the Lionel product the better it seems to get vs. 3-4 years ago. Hope they keep working on their packaging. I will say they were quick to repair and take care of any issues. Customer service from Katie & Aaron was top-notch!

Haven't had any problems with many purchases. Just the luck of the draw as to how the package is handled I'd guess.  Disappointing, but the dealers and Lionel always make any problems good from what people are experiencing.

@Greg from Texas posted:

A couple of months ago I received my brand new Legacy Penn. S-1 when I unwrapped it a screw fell out, then I found there were actually three screws missing from assembly. Still waiting on them.

Today I received my new Legacy Pacific "MKT"  and it has the little cap that sits over the whistle steam port. Looks like a magnet and a small seal hold it on. Lionel ships this with it on the train. So it easily comes loose. The top of the engine is ruined. There are tiny scratch marks all around the area. There are also some broken pieces on the engine.

A few months ago I order an ABA Texas & Pacific that was a warehouse find and the way it was packed, by lionel two of the smokestacks off. Lionel replaced them. But it was a huge deal

So, I can buy 20-year-old train new in the box...but Almost every new engine I preorder comes with an issue.

I have bought several MTH engines in the last couple of years and never had this experience.

Is this happening to others?

Greg

Greg,

Why are you asking?  I'm sure that you already know the answer.

Complain to them.  Not us.

All of us are tired of the quality control problems, but they are the nature of the business nowadays, and with few exceptions, unfortunately, many other businesses as well.

If you don't like what you get don't buy it anymore.  Go to another source however and you'll find the same thing; different in the specific details, but the very same thing nonetheless.

In our hobby, for many items and from most sources, quality is once again too expensive for manufacturers to invest in, just like it was in the 70's.

Mike

I bought a Vision Line 3985 Challenger NIB- opened it up, screws were loose and bouncing around in the box. Luckily, there was no shrapnel damage- I put my big boy pants on, took out my small screwdrivers, and put them back where they belonged.

If you receive a so-called NIB engine with shell damage, I would call the dealer and just return it. JMO.

Geno

I run about a 20% defect rate on new Lionel locomotives.  Have had to return a new Peabody RS-1 for grinding one direction operation.  Returned a new NS SD80 Mac for zero response to anything,..   And this week sent back a new FEC SD45-2 for multiple issues.   None of these issues were from shipping damage and the RS-1 and SD80mac was immediately replaced by the dealer.   The SD45 will either have to be repaired or refunded,  such is life.

Gosh Mike,

A bleak picture.  I thought I was just snake-bit, with all of the problems I have had with NIB items.

On the other hand, I have bought three NIB Williams or Williams-Bachman locos, from TrainWorld, and every one of them arrived in three days and worked fine.  None were pre-order, and none are command control.  The boxing on all of them was incredibly sturdy.   The steam loco I got last week, in its original box,  was double-boxed in two really heavy cardboard boxes.

Mannyrock

I solved my Lionel problems. I just don't buy their stuff anymore unless it's a must have item. Which is seldom the case anymore.

So I have decided on my new Legacy Pacific MKT...I sent her off to Harry Heike in New Jersey to have her weathered. My first try at it. I will share pictures when I get her back. The cars haven't come in yet but will have them weathered also.

Never purchased a new Lionel engine but I've also never had any damage issues with the new MTH or Atlas engines I have bought.  I am a 99% diesel guy -  fragile steam engines do appear to have more damage potential.

@Greg from Texas posted:

So I have decided on my new Legacy Pacific MKT...I sent her off to Harry Heike in New Jersey to have her weathered. My first try at it. I will share pictures when I get her back. The cars haven't come in yet but will have them weathered also.

I'd still complain to lionel, maybe you have already. You should get some compensation regardless, maybe help with the cost of weathering to fix their screw up.

I feel for you and understand the frustration but I have to agree with those that asked if you contacted both Lionel and the dealer at all?  While it may not get you any results, they at least need to hear the issues or nothing will ever change.  We all like to come here and share our new products but when there is something wrong the first place to go is the dealer and the manufacturer.  Give them the chance to resolve the problem.

Packaging on some of Lionel products in the last 10 years have a lot to be desired IMO.  I really wish them could do better especially the distances these things travel before they even get to the dealers.

I think you'll be happy with what Harry can do for you.

I have been fortunate with my new engine purchases- other than my experience with the VL Challenger, my VL SP Daylight GS-4, Legacy Big Boy, and all new Legacy diesels all came undamaged and in working order out of the box. Of course, my VL Challenger and Daylight GS-4 are prima donas and some of those fancy smoke features work 50% or less of the time. We pay so much for these engines, but they obviously are far from perfect.

Geno

OK IF YOU COMPLAIN HERE... LIONEL will send you a brand-new engine.

So keep those complaints coming.

Also when you are driving your car and you swear at the lousy drivers while in your car with the windows up...

those drivers hear you and will drive better!

Fwiw -

I checked my GM&O pacific and it does in fact, seem that for whatever reason, the strength of the magnet for the whistle steam removable dome seems a bit weak.

My loco did not suffer the same marring as the OP, but when removing the dome, one can tell there was travel.

At least in this case, it doesn’t seem as if packing was the culprit, but rather an insufficient magnet, and/or a not-so-snug grommet for the smoke fluid.

Those who say you should take these issues up with Lionel  and/or the dealer are correct from a warranty perspective, but nonetheless to the extent this is a forum, and one purpose of a forum is to share knowledge, experiences, and feedback regarding the products that are purchased, hearing about these issues is informative.  

Personally, if it’s me and there are anything more than minor issues, return it for a refund.  I don’t appreciate it when manufacturers do final quality control on my time.

@Ray Lombardo posted:

Those who say you should take these issues up with Lionel  and/or the dealer are correct from a warranty perspective, but nonetheless to the extent this is a forum, and one purpose of a forum is to share knowledge, experiences, and feedback regarding the products that are purchased, hearing about these issues is informative.  

Personally, if it’s me and there are anything more than minor issues, return it for a refund.  I don’t appreciate it when manufacturers do final quality control on my time.

Ray

I agree but the first step is the manufacturer and dealer. I would never tell one not to come here and share their experiences.  It makes us a better forum.

Give them a shot to fix it.  The outcome may be better than coming here first.  Then you may have a thread saying "Great Service" or something to that effect or you may have one with a legitimate complaint that the issue went unresolved.  Both scenarios are good for the forum to hear!

Your point is totally fair Marty.  

Happy holidays, Merry Christmas, Happy New Year!

I am happy you shared this experience as I have preordered two diesel locos from the 2021 v2 catalog and it reminded me of all the other posts I read regarding preorder issues in the past. Granted, I've preordered through dealers but still....

Also, I think if you read the post you'd see that the OP mentions the hassle he had with getting one of his items fixed. AKA HE CONTACTED LIONEL. That's called a context clue. Further,  lambasting or disagreeing with one for venting their frustration only hurts the one's ability to be informed when making a purchase. Not everyone on this forum is an expert, nor is every purchaser on the forum but believe they look and read.

Lastly, within the last month I read an older post about WbB(ironically someone here had a good experience with them- happy to hear that!) and what they are planning to do with the Williams o gauge line. It came up that WbB was no longer a forum sponsor and felt that the price they'd pay wouldn't grant them enough exposure. The numbers and such were summarized nicely in a post by Rich Melvin regarding WbB's decision. Point is, WbB made the mind-boggling decision to stop advertising on this site(mind-boggling if they want to continue making o gauge, but that's a different topic)- aka they pay attention. It could be said, if WbB's objective is to sink their o gauge line, then cutting off support and advertising on this forum would be a great place to start. The same works the other way around, invested o gauge manufacturers do pay attention to this forum- even if they don't always respond, they lurk. They know where a good, dedicated chunk of their customer base is- thus it's important to voice satisfaction or displeasure towards a manufacturer on this forum, otherwise you've wasted an opportunity to let the manufacturer know, the dealers know, current hobbyists know, and prospective hobbyists know what you view as quality and consistency in products and customer service.

I wish Lionel would just get their house in order.  Surely this can be turned around and the quality problems resolved.

If not sooner or later this could end up putting Lionel out of business.

3rd Rail hands down is a premium manufacturer that knows how to design, build, package, deliver and rectify any issues you may have with their products.

When you have a service related issue Scott and his team is on it.  They do what they can to satisfy you 100%.

@feet posted:

If not sooner or later this could end up putting Lionel out of business.

How so?  What is it about the situation that will put them out of business?

People taking their business elsewhere?  No.  We are a small market. There aren't enough places to take the business in order to make that kind of difference.  The competitors we have are not much better than Lionel.

And as a result people are still buying from Lionel in spite of the poor quality.

Kazar gave us a hint though.  It is true that 3rd Rail is the acknowledged leader here, but you have to pay more to get it.  Most of us are not willing to do that.

Result: The status quo will continue, no matter how much complaining we do about it on this forum.

Mike

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

How so?  What is it about the situation that will put them out of business?

People taking their business elsewhere?  No.  We are a small market. There aren't enough places to take the business in order to make that kind of difference.  The competitors we have are not much better than Lionel.

And as a result people are still buying from Lionel in spite of the poor quality.

Kazar gave us a hint though.  It is true that 3rd Rail is the acknowledged leader here, but you have to pay more to get it.  Most of us are not willing to do that.

Result: The status quo will continue, no matter how much complaining we do about it on this forum.

Mike

I don't see how they get away with this but your right, People still buy their trains and they know it.

Myself I stay away if possible.

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

How so?  What is it about the situation that will put them out of business?

People taking their business elsewhere?  No.  We are a small market. There aren't enough places to take the business in order to make that kind of difference.  The competitors we have are not much better than Lionel.

And as a result people are still buying from Lionel in spite of the poor quality.

Kazar gave us a hint though.  It is true that 3rd Rail is the acknowledged leader here, but you have to pay more to get it.  Most of us are not willing to do that.

Result: The status quo will continue, no matter how much complaining we do about it on this forum.

Mike

Mike,

3rd Rail may be bit more expensive, but I just can't fathom paying $2,000 for an engine that has inherent flaws and quality issues to start with.   

Not sure if a higher price translates to better quality on a $2,000 engine as any model in that price range should be "perfect" straight out of the box in my opinion.

All I can suggest is, hold off on your purchases until such time the market corrects itself with improved quality control and service.

If 50% or better of the purchasers on this forum alone were to do this, I believe things would change long term for the better.

Thanks Kazar, for mentioning Third Rail.  I'd never heard of them before but went to their website and already I know that, after I build this Lionel train I've preordered (coaches due in May, diesels due here tomorrow!), I will someday try Third Rail.  The brass steam engines seem like they might be very beautiful and alluring....

A point that seems to be overlooked is that many of us, perhaps almost all of us are not having quality problems. You don’t hear from us for obvious reasons.🥳

If one looks at Amazon for just about any product produced in China, there is always a 5-10% 1 star ratings for defective products.  Quality issues is not just with trains.   Its a wide spread problem.  I was sick when I read up on new refrigerators.  You spend 1200-2000 on a new model and its only rated to last 8 years.  If you need a repair, good luck.  They can never get parts.  My last dell laptop was in the repair shop more than it was in my hands.  Constantly locking up and shutting down.  Dell eventually replaced it after much complaining.  The replacement lasted 2 years and died. I have a much better track record with trains.  I do not believe any of the manufactures want defective products.  Its bad for business and costs them money.  When I watch "Demos with Dave" I can see the passion they bring to develop new reliable products.

Lionel has clearly had some lemons but they also have knocked it out of the park on many models.  I still continue to buy their products as I am pleased with most purchases.  Nothing is perfect but as long as they are willing to work with me to fix a defect, I am content.  They clearly have some very passionate people working for them who want to do a good job.

My last few engines all had some issue with them that needed attention.  Each was addressed and all are running on my layout.  Do I wish for a better track record?  Yes.  But each was fixed quickly thanks to Lionel.

B6sb - Alignment problem when assembled.  It was binding on curves out of the box.  No parts were needed.  I simply took it apart and properly aligned the parts.  Running perfectly now.

PRR Genset - Some of the trim parts were very loose.  Had to take the shell off to get to the screws so I could properly seat the tool boxes and tighten the screws.  The tiny fill value for the fuel tank was sitting in the box.  A dab of glue and pressed it back into the fuel tank.  Its now perfect and in service.

PRR Legacy S1 - Came with 2 bent front wheels.  Program/Run switch was defective Called Lionel and they sent me out new wheels and switch.  Had the parts within a week.  Popped them in and replaced the defective switch.  Its now my favorite steamer.  Running great!

All my early TMCC locs are all still running strong without any issues.  The hobby is not perfect but I don't expect perfection.  I expect enjoyment which I get even when something does not go right.  I can't ask for more than that.

You guys are scaring me as I have new Engines and train sets from both Lionel and MTH that I received as gifts and haven’t opened some of them in a year.