Lionel dealer layouts after 1962

IMO the nicest dealer display layouts produced by Lionel were from the 1950-1960 period. Once they mixed HO onto otherwise O Gauge layouts, they lost their charm.

There were small 027 display layouts in the early MPC era. One that I have is made of molded plastic. Instructions tell you to provide your own plywood base under the plastic.

Hi Kevin,

The Roger Carp book is great! In looking at the book, I think you may be referring to the D-264 which was a super O layout on a 5 x 9 board. I think you should be able to fit that track plan on a 4 by 8 sheet of plywood using 027 or 031 (o gauge) track. If you want to be true to the display layout look from the 1960s, you could use atlas track which looks a lot like super O and they have a 0-27 curve. (the only problem with this is that magne Traction will not work on the atlas nickel rails). The other think to keep in mind when trying to fit the other track is that super O used 12 pieces of track for a full circle, while the 0-27 uses 8 sections of track.

When I did a 8x8 dealer display layout, I modified the track plan to eliminate the need for using the trestles.

Here is a picture of my display layout:



You could consider a larger diameter track for the outer loop to run bigger engines, 0-27 will restrict what you can run.

Keep us posted on what you are planning.

Hi,

Thank you for the input. Time for some more thinking and building the layout in my head.


Kevin

I wish Roger's book was still in print. The prices for a used copy on the internet are ridiculous.

Dave, I also altered the D265 track plan several years ago, for a Christmas Festival held each year at Bear Mountain State Park.

Skip - You did a spectacular job with that layout. Any more photos to add?

Hi Skip, I agree with Mike, that is a fanastic layout, with Super O track and a great looking mountain!

Thanks Mike and Dave. Mike, I'm sure I have a photo album of photos from when the layout was on display at Bear Mountain. But the logistics of the situation limited the camera angles unless we wanted to shoot through plexiglass.

I do have this photo of the layout, in my basement just prior to taking it up to Bear Mountain for the first time. We had just tested everything and were removing the accessories for transport. You can see clearly in this photo, how I altered the track plan of the original D265.


After a number of years, the festival was "cut back" due to budget cuts, and the secure space that we once enjoyed was no longer available. The layout was once again set up in my basement, where it remained until we moved in 2000. Here's a shot taken after several years of adding and tinkering.

Hi,

The photos look great. What did you guys use to make your mountain? I found one note that used some pretty flammable stuff to make it alopng with the method of using wool felt and fish glue. What did you cover the mountain with sawdust grass or straight paint?

Thanks,

Kevin

Hi,

I have also seen references to using brown Craft type paper and then cover it with Rigid-wrap type cloth, which has plaster in it.


Thanks,

Kevin

Kevin, The Lionel Corporation Dealer Displays used celastic, which is a muslin cloth that is impregnated with colloidal plastic that must be softened in acetone or similar solvent. That might be what you were referring to as flammable. They used the wool dipped in fish glue underneath along with crumbled newspaper to add shape. This was placed over window screen (early) or craft paper (later)which was draped over wood supports.

Unless your a purist you will probably prefer to use a more modern approach with readily available material like rigid wrap. That's what I used, over wire screen. I painted the mountain with spray paint, four colors gray, tan, brown and green, then sprinkled in Lionel 919 grass AKA dyed sawdust. I made my mountain a removable module, connected electrically with a "molex" plug.

I built a wood frame and then shaped a mountain with cardboard strips. I then used Rigid Wrap plaster cloth to cover the card board strips. I then used sculptamold to cover the plaster cloth. When its dried, its very strong. I suspect for Skip's layout, he build a platform, perhaps wilth plywood, for the track to lay on on his mountain.

This is a frame I built for another mountain:



All this stuff is usually available at your hoppy shop or a craft's store like Michaels.

Dave

Dave, It looks like you did your's very similarly to mine. I did build the platform for the track first, and then formed the mountainous areas on top of the platform and from the tabletop up to the platform. It looks like your mountain is removable also. For me, that was done for portability.

Kevin,

THe other thing about the d-265 that Skip and I modeled, several years ago, Jim Barrett built a d-265 using lionel fastrack that was shown in O-Gauge Railroading in 2005. A few years ago, he posted a copy of the articles on the Forum.

Skip,

I am a bit of a purist. On my pre-war layout I created plots and such using the same materials that were used in the 1930's. I was thinking that I might want to pursue the same path for the 1960's layout, but using a flammable mixture or heating up fish glue might not be the best thing to do these days. As mentioned by others I could go the route of brown craft paper over top of supports and then adding the rigid-wrap over the paper. Once that is done then I guess I could keep to using paints and sawdust grass to keep the exterior look to the 1960's.
I have found some photos on the internet of origianl D-264 layouts for reference. One of them has a ripped open mountain so I can see some of the wooden supports.

Back to the thinking stage again.

Thanks,
Kevin

Yes, Dave. Jim's reproduction, unlike mine and yours, was very close to the actual D265 track plan. Interestingly enough, Fastrack is very similar in pattern to Super O, both being approximately 036. Jim had that layout at one of the York meets a few years ago. Very nicely done!

Kevin, Be assured that if the Lionel Corporation display department existed today, they wouldn't be using celastic and fish glue! Just have fun. I think replicating the look and feel are the most important thing. That can be done using modern materials.

BTW Kevin, Regarding your original question about the 5'x9' Super O track plan working on a 4'x8' table using 027....

I believe you can do it with regular 031 O gauge tubular track. I think it would be more "trouble free." I see two potential problems using 027, although it would fit.

1. The tighter the radius, the more resistance thus make pulling a train up hill through curves more difficult. You'd need a lot of power and it could be prone to derailment.

2. 027 track is pretty flimsy and tends to bend under the weight of a heavy locomotive when used with the 110 type trestles. This could make for a bumpy ride and possible derailments also.

@ skip nycfan , nice pics. would you know the dates in 2012 for the bear mountain event ? thanks, paul

Hi,

First off Happy new Year and thank you to everyone on this forum that have helped me with my Post-War collection along with my Pre-War layout.

Based on Skip's comment about using O-27 track as being too flimsy for the trestle parts. I was thinking that I would make a 9' x 5' platform to lay over top of the 4 x 8' framing to make the D-264 Lionel dealer layout. Are there any other concerns that might push me between usin O-27 versus O-31? I have Plasticville structures that would have been around in the 1960's in keeping with my time frame. So I was thinking that O-27 might give me some more real estate to put up the buildings. My layout is based on what was available in 1963, so I was thinking that the D-264 would work out nicely. Attached to my frame is a 3'x3' small extension forming an L, so I plan on adding a third switch to run a track into that exension to use for more Lionel functioning accessories and Plasticville structures.

So after my long papragraph, my questions comes down to using either O-27 or O-31 track. I do not plan on running long consists, I am slowly gathering the pieces for Lionel's lower end train sets from 1963.


Thank you,

Kevin Coyle

Hi,

If I were to use O-27, could I just add a few more trestles to help support the weight of the consist? I have a photo of an original D-264 and it appears to have O-31 as the outer loop and Super-O inside.

Thanks,

Kevin

quote:

I have a photo of an original D-264 and it appears to have O-31 as the outer loop and Super-O inside.

Never saw anything like that Kevin. PLEASE post that photo!

Adding additional A trestles is possible. Not so easy on the grades. You'd need to manufacture 1/2 spacers.

The other problem I was talking about with 027 is the effect of centripetal force. If the consist gets longer than a half circle, you may experience problems especially on the up grades.

Skip,

Here is the link for the photo. It also looks like they added a access tunnel hole in the corner to get to any cars that might have been stuck inside the mountain.


http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/9151503


Kevin

The track does not follow the silk screened road bed, so the 031 track was obviously not part of the original layout. It replaced what was originally an outer Super O oval.

Good catch!

Whatever happened to the D-265 that Jim built? I remember seeing it in the purple hall at York once.

Skip, do you have a track plan for your modified D-265? I'd love to see it.

You can build the D-264 with O-27 on a 4X8, but you will have very little edge distance. Would you be interested in the D-290? I will scan it in later .