Lionel Postwar General Set # X-619

From the Schmid book.......A promotional outfit from 1961. Made for the Brown Foreman Distillers Corp. Only 160 made and very rare.

2 unique items:

1. only outfit in 1961 to include a 45 watt transformer with direction control.

2. the only General set to have a separate caboose.

Can we see some pictures?  There are none in the Schmid book.

Peter

Thanks Peter. The set is in pristine condition. Appears to have only been run around the tree, judging from the tinsel I found wrapped around the axle of the caboose. Has been in storage for decades. I'll try to get some pics up in the coming days...

John

I'd also love to see pictures of this set.  I have a soft spot for Lionel "Generals".

Andy

Here are some pics of the set....

I just looked up this set in the Greenberg's guide of 2016 and it lists the transformer # 1014 as a 40 watt unit, however the transformer # 1014 is listed as being from 1955. The engine & cars are listed from 59 to 62.

Not sure why the Greenberg's guide gives a different date for the transformer.

Lee

Putnam Division posted:

From the Schmid book.......A promotional outfit from 1961. Made for the Brown Foreman Distillers Corp. Only 160 made and very rare.

2 unique items:

1. only outfit in 1961 to include a 45 watt transformer with direction control.

2. the only General set to have a separate caboose.

Can we see some pictures?  There are none in the Schmid book.

Peter

Peter-

Unlike the documentation that you found, the transformer in this set is a 40W #1014 and does not have a directional controller. I believe this set, which was one 'ownered' by my brother in law's father, to be completely as purchased. I suspect that since there were so few of these sets they may have used transformers that were available at the time the sets were assembled. Being primarily a Marx collector/operator, I've gotten rather used to 'variations'....

John

I have been asked by the owner of this set to appraise it's value. Does anyone have an opinion on the fair market value of this set?

Thanks-

John

Came across this thread and found it very interesting since I am very fond of the Generals.  This looks to be a very nice set with the box and accessories all present.  My two cents as to value - although rare, the items are common.  I would think it would be as valuable as any of the 1862 sets in the same condition.  The ones I've seen on eBay go between 150 and 250.  Of course, at auction, with multiple bidders, you could go much higher, especially if it's someone who's collecting postwar sets, or General sets, or un-cataloged sets.

BroadwayLTD posted:

Putnam Division posted:

From the Schmid book.......A promotional outfit from 1961. Made for the Brown Foreman Distillers Corp. Only 160 made and very rare.

2 unique items:

1. only outfit in 1961 to include a 45 watt transformer with direction control.

2. the only General set to have a separate caboose.

Can we see some pictures?  There are none in the Schmid book.

Peter

Peter-

Unlike the documentation that you found, the transformer in this set is a 40W #1014 and does not have a directional controller. I believe this set, which was one 'ownered' by my brother in law's father, to be completely as purchased. I suspect that since there were so few of these sets they may have used transformers that were available at the time the sets were assembled. Being primarily a Marx collector/operator, I've gotten rather used to 'variations'....

John

Agree totally with your premise.

The pictures are a treasure. That is quite a set!

Peter

As far as value...........To someone who is a collector of uncatalogued sets, I'd say in the thousands, but where in the thousands, I just don't know......double digits?  Only 160 made!  In at least excellent condition. Great boxes, too!

Maybe contact John Schmid?

Peter

BROADWAYLTD,

If the set were mine and I wished to determine a value (for sale or insurance purposes), I would Ebay the item with an extremely high reserve and see what the auction public would be willing to bid. The values rest on your set box and inserts if included, good luck.

Thanks to all who responded to my requests for info on this set. 

When I was asked to appraise this set, my initial thoughts were much like those of SWANKO's, probably safe to value it like other General 1862 sets.

Then I saw a listing at ebay (see attached pic), and I realized that this is a rare find. Thanks to Peter for having the Schmid info.

That said, I do understand that anything is only worth what some one's (or in the case of an auction, what 2 people) are willing to pay.

I will discuss this input with the set's owner. He seems to be willing to part with the set. 

I'll update this post as needed.

John

Amazing!  I know boxes for top of the line sets go for big bucks, but I'd never think that for this set.  Does anyone know the rarity or value of the caboose?  Perhaps the condition and completeness of the set and the caboose being unique or rare(only 160 made how many are left?) contribute to the value of the set.  For someone to pay over 500 for a box leads me to believe the complete set value may indeed be in the thousands.

Does anyone know the rarity or value of the caboose?

I have owned a few of them over the years. I think I currently have a nice one. They aren't common, nor are they rare. Tandem says it's a #6120. Here is a link to Tandem's description.

As far as I can see, there is nothing rare about the individual pieces. It's all about the boxes and any other material that was packed in with the trains.

If your friend decides to sell and would list this set on the "bay," it would be a treat to watch for the final high bid. I wonder how many pure box collectors are still out there? My two high end collector buddies from Ohio and Michigan are selling most of what they have acquired over the years before father time catches up.

BroadwayLTD,

Please contact me. I have a question for you.

Dennis Brennan

Brennan's Model Railroading

dennis@brennansmodelrr.com 

Lionel also produced a X-619 uncatalogued set in 1958 according to Greenberg's Uncatalogued Sets.

it had the 210P/210T Texas Special Alco units in it. The box was also the basket weave type set box.

Just wanted to let you know that there is another set out there with the same set number.

Neat set and in such terrific condition. 

John and all,

 Thanks for the great conversation and pictures about this nice promotional outfit.  That was one of the goals when we wrote The Authoritative Guide to Lionel's Promotional Outfits 1960 - 1969, i.e. to share information about all these long lost treasures that Lionel produced in the 1960's and to spark conversations like in this post.

The X-619 1961 version (Lionel also produced an X-619 in 1958 that had NO relationship to this one and they re-used the X-6xx number scheme) is a great find and is featured on pages 257 – 258 of my book.  They were produced for Brown Forman Distillers Corp (described on page 122) and likely used for some sort retail promotion or employee incentive.  Although this is the first observation that I’ve seen with a price written on the box.  The contents per the Original Lionel Factory Orders (which are orders to the factory on what to produce) do match what is shown in the picture.   The only exceptions are that the transformer should be a 1015-60 but sometimes things did get changed out when it came time to actually package the outfit.  Others I’ve seen do have a 1015 transformer as well as the 1013-12 Envelope packed, track and paperwork (instructions sheets and accessory catalog).  I typically do not see red wires or what appears to be Velcro on the wire of the transformer so it may have been replaced over time.  Either way, that is such a small part of the outfit.

As for value, although 160 seems like a small number and it is, it still ranks as 111 out of the more than 700 promotional outfits made by Lionel in the 1960’s (page 841 of my book).  I gave it a rarity of 10 due to the low numbers and the few I saw when I wrote the book in 2007.  Since then, I’ve seen two other outfits and about three empty boxes.  Yes you are buying the outfit box!  The contents in many promotional as well as catalog outfits are common.  The value is in the outfit box itself.  That is why I provided rarity and values for both the empty box and complete outfit in my book. As discussed by others, empty outfit boxes for the X-619 have sold for hundreds.  Your outfit would be at least $1,000 to the right buyer.

Overall, a great find and thanks for sharing.  If you have any other questions, please don’t hesitate to reach out.  I love this stuff and I’m glad you all are enjoying finds like this as well….and if you like promotional outfits and the history of Lionel, please check out our books at www.projectroar.com.

Best,

John  – Author/Publisher of The Authoritative Guide to Lionel’s Promotional Outfits 1960 – 1960

John W. Schmid

Project Roar Publishing

www.projectroar.com

I love this kind of stuff!

Peter

jschmid posted:

John and all,

 Thanks for the great conversation and pictures about this nice promotional outfit.  That was one of the goals when we wrote The Authoritative Guide to Lionel's Promotional Outfits 1960 - 1969, i.e. to share information about all these long lost treasures that Lionel produced in the 1960's and to spark conversations like in this post......

 

Thanks John for taking the time to respond to this thread. It is indeed special to hear from the man who 'wrote the book' on postwar Lionel promotional sets!

Best Regards-

John

A better shot of the set...

John

BroadwayLTD posted:

A better shot of the set...

John

 

A bit like finding a cave of Dead Sea scrolls, but in this case, a rare cardboard box with inserts, a centerpiece for most collectors of vintage postwar,  thanks for the photo...

Love the post!  I always wanted a General.