Lionel PW Alcos 2012, Ribs...yay or nay?

did you contact Lionel?   This is what bugs me about using mock ups for the catalogs. I understand it's a necessary evil, but it causes confusion.  I'd be interested to find out the answer too!

Sounds like a good topic to broach with some Lionel folks at York.

I assume the ribs should not be on the Navy Alco AB units also???

 

Were the ribs an issue on the LCCA and CC Alcos???

 

Thx

Joe S  

When I obtained the 1994 version of the UP Alco with the diecast frame (18119) I was somewhat disappointed that the lettering was so far off. On that model, the lettering seems smaller and shorter. It did not occur to me that this might have been a result of those ribs on the bottom.

 

IMHO, the only chance of getting an answer from Lionel would be for a major dealer to ask.

 

here's a pic of the cc ALCOs  - they have the ribs - 

 

Ribs or no ribs, I preordered the UP Anniversary Set last week!

“will Lionel see fit to remove

the stupid ribs off the bottom of the body shells.”

 

I am interested in this set as well, but I don't understand what "ribs" are being discussed here. Can someone post a picture of or a better description for those of us that don't follow?

 

I can say, I am not fond of the PW "hump" on top. To me it looks like heat damage. I realize this is a different problem from what is being asked here.

 

Charlie

The ribs run along the bottom edge of the shell - if memory serves, they were added to aid in aligning and applying lettering/decoration in a consistent manner.  

I knew they added ribs to the base of the F-3 for painting the MPC-Era Santa Fe's, but hadn't looked at the ALCo FA's since then.

 

Jon 

This link to Ebay shows what I was referring to - the 3 ridges run along the full length of the shell like the MPC SF F unit mentioned:  http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lionel-NOS-6-18937-Non-powered-Amtrack-FA-2-Alco-/330540723884?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item4cf5c32eac

 

These MPC NH F units have the ridges running along the side as well:  http://www.ebay.com/itm/LIONEL-6-8851-New-Haven-F-3-AA-Dual-Motored-Diesel-Dummy-Set-C-10-/260915358389?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item3cbfc46ab5

I'm pretty sure the stamped frame Alcos and cast frame Alcos will use different molds.

 

Rusty

Yep - the diecast frame Alco FA shell mounts to the chassis differently than the cheapened later style FA with the stamped, sheet metal frame.  if you look closely at the new catalog, the Marine and Navy Alco's are the sheet metal type, and they have the ridges running along the side of the shell.  The pix of the UP and RI don't show ridges.  It would be nice if Lionel would get rid of the shell ridges - they should only be on the pilot area.

Those side ribs gotta go...big time!  They were NEVER on any PW Alco, and

shouldn't be there today.  It's just a sad part of the MPC era heritage.

you can see the ridges here - 

 

 

 

 

but not on the PW ones - 

 

 

 

 

The diecast frame Alcos from 1993 (Erie) and 1994 (Union Pacific) have the ribs.

As was already posted, none of the original postwar Alcos have them.

 

The hump was a warp caused when the shell was cooling after it left the mold.  Lionel changed the mold slightly (the small "disk" that's visible on the roof) to correct the problem.  The disk is visible on the A units in Christopher20's pictures above.

 

Rusty

OK, thanks guys. Now I see what you’re talking about. I have added a picture of my 1994 UP Alco, (which I really like except for the lack of current control electronics). For those that may still not understand about the "ribs" it might better be described as "fluting". In this case, the words "Union Pacific" are just above the "ribs or fluting" and are not present in the PW versions.

 

 

 

 I'm not sure I have a problem with the "ribs" now that I understand what is being talked about here. I guess it adds a bit more detail to a pretty plain loco in my eyes, I could like them either way I suppose.

 

If these issues run as well as the 1994 versions do, than I will be picking up a Rock Island set. From my limited comparison to another set that I have run side by side, the 1994 version is a better runner (smoother) and puller (maybe better Magna-Traction) My 1994 version has pulled the original 1994 set plus an additional three cars around the Midwest Division layout with no problems. And the track is Gargraves so limited to no additional pulling power with Magna-Traction.

 

Charlie

Many of you are "Too Young" to remember the reason that the  "ribs - flutes - separation lines" were put there in the first place.  You will also recall that the  F-3 also had the ribs put in for a similar reason. A big fururor came about this when Lionel began the PWC Series and did the W.P. F-3's with the ribs (etc.) so that they had to redo the W.P. shells and exchange them for those who wanted a more correct version.

 

 The reason:  was to better separate the colors for the Santa Fe warbonnet paint scheme that MPC brought back.  If you recheck the F-3 series, there are no ribs before that road name/scheme was done. After the S.F. Warbonnet, all the f-3's had the ribs, and  the early alcos that MPC also  did.

 

  One can look at the QuickSilver paint scheme on the low end alco and see the ribs. As these were not highly collectable, no one cared too much about it on the low end alco;  But  a Post War Celebration Series - that's "a horse of a different color". The ribs do make printing letters and logos more difficult, but smaller, more elongated lettering can give a forced perspective of length to the units too, due to their  shorter /smaller size.

 

  Hope this helps you understand the why of the ribs, and what might be involved in changing it back.   Dennis M.

Interesting thread. The GREAT RIB CAPER.     Seriously, have learned a lot and Charlie's picture really helps me see what you're talking about since I'm not all that familiar with the shell changes.

 

As I posted above, I've pre-ordered the Anniversary Set and am looking forward to it in whatever form it takes.

The separation lines were added in 1970 on the 8020 Santa Fe Alco and have been there ever since. The Red and Yellow were hot stamped on and the

ribs' were used to align the body in the stamping process. before that the last run of Santa Fe Alco's was the postwar 212 engines of 1966 and the red and yellow were rubber stamped on.

So did anyone notice or care when the latest-latest batch of Alco's came out? The LCCA's and the CC sets? I didn't buy any, so I didn't follow any of the threads at the time. I recall there was some motor or drive truck issue, but can't recall hearing about the ribs. Perhaps now is the time to begin an uproar over the ribs, before the shells go into production?

 

Also, wasn't the PWC Western Pacific F3 uproar over the nose logo being a loose sticker just packed in the box for the owner to install? I was on AOL during that time, and I really remember folks being ticked about that.

 

quote:

So did anyone notice or care when the latest-latest batch of Alco's came out?

 

In all honesty, I never took note of the ribs until it was mentioned by the original poster on this thread. I certainly had noticed the difference in the lettering between the 1950 yellow Union Pacific 2023 and the 1994 yellow Union Pacific 8119 but didn't make any association with the ribs.

 

Chuck indicated that the ribs were added in 1970 for the 8020 Santa Fe alcos. I wonder whether this was done for only the open pilot engines (with a front coupler), or was it done for the closed pilot engines (no front coupler) too.
I have some unpainted closed pilot alco shells. They do not have the ribs. I am wondering whether the lack of ribs identifies them as being postwar.

Last posting @ 4-03-2012, MPC thread, on pg.7 a photo of several MPC low end Alcos shows the ribs on open and closed pilot units. Further down, there are close-ups where you can see the ribs clearly.         

 

I have an ERIE, # 8452, with a  closed front pilot unit in two tone green and it has the ribs. It would seem that since the ribs were put in, they were not removed. The only tooling changes were if  the pilot, opened or closed, was attached or if it was omitted for the mounting on the die-cast frame.                                                                          

 

Later tooling changes were made to the body to allow the metal and die-cast frames to be replaced by the all plastic frame with the low end can motor trucks. These tooling changes were probably swapping out mold inserts so each type could be run without making a whole entire new mold.                                                                                                  

 

A smart manufacturer, when designing a mold for something, who knows that they will be running various versions of an item; will design the mold with different/ removable sections/inserts so that those items that are constant do not have to be remade; you only change out the variable part/section.  Installing the ribs would be easy (carve a few horizontal lines into the mold side) vs. taking them out (needing to fill-in those carved lines and make it a clean, smooth side).

Until those stooopid ribs go bye-bye, you can't have a PW repro Alco that

looks anything like the original....especially if it uses side graphics such as

the UP and RI.   Lionel; you readin' this, once already!???

I pre-ordered the UP set, so we'll see when it comes in.  I'm not concerned so much about the ribs (though I might be if they interfere with lettering/decoration), but more so with the contruction of the locomotives.  If they don't have die-cast frames, it's a no-go.  I'll look for the cars individually and run them with my Williams Alcos.

IMHO, the Alcos are almost certainly going to have the ribs, are likely to have the same frame as the 1994 version (two piece diecast frame).

They may even have the Bloomberg trucks that the LCCA diecast frame switcher will have. If Lionel was unwilling to make the correct truck sides for the LCCA engine, why would they make them for these engines?

 

Regardless of everything mentioned, I bet these engines will sell very well. So Lionel will not have a business case to make the corrections.

If the above is the case then I'll be dialing 1 800 WILLIAMS for a big Rock

Island ALCO 027 FA2 set...with TWO motors, correct sideframes( even

though they stick out a bit too far) and an even better looking pilot than

the PW original!  Ribs belong at Smokey Bones...NOT on your Lionel chooch!

I had never heard of this before. How was the frame two piece? How is it held together? Was the same type of frame used on the Erie Alco's from that early 90's-ish era?

if memory serves me right the UP alco set from about 9 years back had some corrrections made to the front pilots after those terrible fallen flags Erie's.

As far as ribs are concerned it may be to costly a change to have them removed.

hey, i'm glad to see ALCO'S in general. 3/4 of loaf is better than no loaf at all.

regards

louie

To be fair, the catalog pictures do show the PW style truck sides, and the LCCA pictures do show the GP/Bloomberg style truck sides on their switchers. I haven't heard anything one way or the other, but maybe LCCA wanted those side frames to have some kind of odd 1955 and on 600-series switcher look?

 

The catalog doesn't seem to show the ribs, but the pic of the Rock Island sure does look like the pilot area is the same as the 90's version where they moved the lower pilot back to make room for the coupler thumb tack. Neither pic shows the thumb tack for the front coupler though, so I wonder if Lionel will go back to putting the coil couplers on the front?

 

As for the Navy and USMC Alco's, wasn't it an MPC era claim that they'd change things somehow however slightly so as not to confuse anything "modern" with a PW original? With the CC series, didn't lionel state they would use as much original tools and dies as they could (i.e. the 2400 series passenger cars)? I haven't heard if Lionel made any such claims with regard to this new PW series they started.

 

Sam

I'm with you, Lou. Despite all the discussion this thread has generated, I'm not real concerned with that level of detail. I respect the fact that others may not feel the same, but I preordered the set and will look forward to its arrival.

quote:

To be fair, the catalog pictures do show the PW style truck sides, and the LCCA pictures do show the GP/Bloomberg style truck sides on their switchers. I haven't heard anything one way or the other, but maybe LCCA wanted those side frames to have some kind of odd 1955 and on 600-series switcher look?

 

According to the folks at LCCA, the switcher is being made with the Geep truck sideframes because Lionel no longer has the dies to make the ALCO (PW) style truck sideframes for the diecast truck blocks.

 

Another person asked about the two piece frame.

On the 1993 Erie Alco, #11734, and the 1994 UP ALCO, #18119 the diecast frame was modified from the original postwar configuration. The apron (pilot) was made as a seperate piece, and screwed to the frame. I am not 100 percent on exactly how the apron was made. It might be cast.

Regardless, the fact it was made as a seperate piece worked out well because of issues with the appearance of the Erie when it was first released. The apron was recessed, giving the engine a buck-toothed look. Lionel responded to its customers by making a new pilot without the recess.

The UP came with the nicer pilot.

In my experience the pilot portion of the original Postwar diecast frame alcos are often found damaged (bent or broken). So having them cast as a seperate piece offers us the advantage of their being removeable and replaceable (if you can get the part).

 

The two piece frame and the ribs don't concern me. The truck sideframes, and the lettering (which may be driven by the ribs) do.

I am undecided on whether I will order either the set or the Rock Island. Were Lionel to clarify these questions, it would be easier to decide.

quote:

hey, i'm glad to see ALCO'S in general. 3/4 of loaf is better than no loaf at all.

 

Those who are happy with paying premium dollars for 3/4 of a loaf certainly should go ahead and buy.

Those who want a whole loaf shouldn't.

Until Lionel's customer base demands a whole loaf, Lionel has no business case to provide one.

Not to pick on you C.W. but which customer base should Lionel listen to?

 

"Until Lionel's customer base demands a whole loaf, Lionel has no business case to provide one."

 

Even in this very thread we can not agree on what we want Lionel to make, what makes you think Lionel (or any other company) can make exactly what we want for the price we want?

 

I think the simple answer is to buy what YOU like and leave the negative commentary as to what others buy with THEIR money to yourself.

 

Charlie

 

I can live with the ribs, but if they have EMD trucks, that's a killer for me. Perhaps Lionel will use the truck side frames they have been using on the 200 series alco remakes. I would rather that than the Bloomberg trucks.

Um, they're called Blomberg trucks.  Bloomberg's the mayor of New York City!

 

Rusty

Thank you iPhone autocorrect !

It's going to be correct... or it's going to be Williams!  It's that simple, folks.

I'll wait 'til the product arrives, assess it and decide then what to do.  NO WAY

I'm gonna pre-order this thingie with Lionel's track record on PW Alco redux!