Lionel's new Legacy K4 with long haul tender 6-84115

Lionel's shipping schedule does say June, but I'm going to assume it'll be during the last week of the month.

I know Ryan did say early June, but how early is anyone's guess.

I think the long tenders were pretty rare on K4s.   They were a lot more common on I1s and the M1as were built with them.   Many M1s got them also.    I think Pennsy built about 100 extra long tenders and spread them aroiund.

Of the real K4 photos I have found, only one is pictured with the long distance tender, #5385.  The duplication of the tender side rivet rows ( closer together mid tender and progressively further apart front and back ) is an interesting detail.  Hopefully Lionel takes note of the Baldwin disc drivers on 5385 before delivery.

Bruce

There were only ten K4s equipped with long haul tenders for a short time during the 1930s as an experiment that didn't work out. The largest K4 tender in regular service was the 130-P-75.

The K4 and the SD45 are in the same can. Left on the boat last week of April, so should be here in another week or two.

Dave Olson posted:

The K4 and the SD45 are in the same can. Left on the boat last week of April, so should be here in another week or two.

Terrific. 

I'll be watching the reviews on this one.

Thanks for the update David.

Regardless what others think of its history, this is going to be a pretty interesting locomotive to see done.

Still waiting as well.

brwebster posted:

Of the real K4 photos I have found, only one is pictured with the long distance tender, #5385.  The duplication of the tender side rivet rows ( closer together mid tender and progressively further apart front and back ) is an interesting detail.  Hopefully Lionel takes note of the Baldwin disc drivers on 5385 before delivery.

Bruce

A list of the K-4's equipped with the long distance tender and images of them:

http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com/page2.php

As these will be the K-Line tooling K-4, did they tool up an all new tender or use the existing Lionel one?

Dave Olson posted:

The K4 and the SD45 are in the same can. Left on the boat last week of April, so should be here in another week or two.

Uh oh.  I was hoping the UP SD45 's were coming in the fall! This will hit the Ole wallet

Be interesting to know(because I don't) which engine numbers got the long haul tenders? What was it, 10 or 14 of them?

Some more info on the K4s coast to coast tender experiment from Staufer's Pennsy Power.  Fully loaded, the tender weighed 14 more tons than the engine.  This meant having to drop a car from the train's length, reducing revenue.  Also, in the eastern regions there were few turntables that could handle the K4 and this tender.

Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

Be interesting to know(because I don't) which engine numbers got the long haul tenders? What was it, 10 or 14 of them?

Check out the link in BobbyD's post above.

Mine came today.

I'm suprised Lionel didn't offer a standard tender as well. The original versions are great runners in spite of the bad smoke fan motor epidemic and  are nearly impossible to find on the secondary market.

 These k4s have small can motors.  Imo I'd have some reservations pulling long trains of scale passenger cars with the addition of that heavy a** tender especially up grades.

Having said that.  I hope folks that ordered them are pleased when they get delivered.

BobbyD posted:

As these will be the K-Line tooling K-4, did they tool up an all new tender or use the existing Lionel one?

I believe they are using the m1 tender and modifying it accordingly.

Rick, just curious to know for sound, what whistle did they use in this model or is it a new whistle?

Tom,

It appears that Rick has put the Legacy M1a tender behind the Legacy K4s locomotive in his photos.  The second photo shows a doghouse which the new engines will not have but is on the M1a.  The K4s with the long haul tender has not shipped yet per Dave Olson above.

wrawroacx posted:

Rick, just curious to know for sound, what whistle did they use in this model or is it a new whistle?

I am curious to what it sounds like as well. I saw the preproduction one that they had at TrainWorld on their video, can't wait to see and hear what it is like. Still waiting for a call that mine are in.

J Daddy, looks like you were listening to that song from I think the '90's, "Waiting by the phone" I think it was. I don't know what the rest of the lyrics are, maybe it is just "Waiting by the phone". No bones about it, should be here soon(like waiting 8 weeks for something that feels like a year).

RickO posted:

Mine came today.

 

 "These k4s have small can motors.  Imo I'd have some reservations pulling long trains of scale passenger cars with the addition of that heavy a** tender especially up grades."

Having said that.  I hope folks that ordered them are pleased when they get delivered.

Forgot all about that small can motor K-Line places in the boiler front on these, looks like they may be following the prototype in operation then Rick! Got the Polar K-4 version for my niece and she loves both the way it looks and how it runs.

wrawroacx posted:

Rick, just curious to know for sound, what whistle did they use in this model or is it a new whistle?

IMHO, This is a fundamental flaw in the current BTO process. With sound and smoke being such a huge part of models these days I think the manufacturers need to provide videos of preproduction units that have finalized sound files so people know what they are going to get. Or at least a sound sample. Especially with an engines like the PRR K4 which has a unique whistle. Anything that isn't 100% accurate would be a deal breaker to me.

jonnyspeed posted:

wrawroacx posted:

Rick, just curious to know for sound, what whistle did they use in this model or is it a new whistle?

IMHO, This is a fundamental flaw in the current BTO process. With sound and smoke being such a huge part of models these days I think the manufacturers need to provide videos of preproduction units that have finalized sound files so people know what they are going to get. Or at least a sound sample. Especially with an engines like the PRR K4 which has a unique whistle. Anything that isn't 100% accurate would be a deal breaker to me.

Jonathan - you bring up a great point. In today's modern age, you think could to go to Lionel's website and listen to the product's sound and features before you order... It would definitely boost their sales!

One could "speculate" that its likely Lionel will use one of their previous "pennsy" whistles.

They all seem "kinda" close to some degree  to the real 1361 although none are dead on.

Heres the first run legacy L4 whistle:

Heres the recent legacy M1a, video by forum memeber Zac Eliot:

Heres the Legacy M1b whistle,my personal favorite.. This loco was one of the very first legacy equipped locos.

(Sorry for the poor quality. This was pre tripod)

Go to the :35 mark for the whistle.

Lastly the real 1361 for comparison:

Interesting whistles.

BobbyD posted:

brwebster posted:

Of the real K4 photos I have found, only one is pictured with the long distance tender, #5385.  The duplication of the tender side rivet rows ( closer together mid tender and progressively further apart front and back ) is an interesting detail.  Hopefully Lionel takes note of the Baldwin disc drivers on 5385 before delivery.

Bruce

 

A list of the K-4's equipped with the long distance tender and images of them:

http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com/page2.php

As these will be the K-Line tooling K-4, did they tool up an all new tender or use the existing Lionel one?

 Probably the same tender they used on the M1a minus the dog house.

RickO posted:

BobbyD posted:

As these will be the K-Line tooling K-4, did they tool up an all new tender or use the existing Lionel one?

I believe they are using the m1 tender and modifying it accordingly.

Since the PRR themselves used the exact tender from the M1a locomotives (class 210F-75) then why wouldn't Lionel do the same (minus the doghouse used on freight trains)?  The compact lettering of the 1930's is also appropriate as shown in the post above this one.  The tender in RickO's "Mine came today" post has later 1940's-50's stretched lettering.

Some of the photos of the tenders appear to have a shorter coal bunker and a longer deck area on the 10 original k4's that got the long distance  tender. Does anyone know if there was a difference between the M1A tenders and the ones applied to the K 4.    Thanks for any info

Franky-Ogee

BobbyD posted:

brwebster posted:

Of the real K4 photos I have found, only one is pictured with the long distance tender, #5385.  The duplication of the tender side rivet rows ( closer together mid tender and progressively further apart front and back ) is an interesting detail.  Hopefully Lionel takes note of the Baldwin disc drivers on 5385 before delivery.

Bruce

 

 

A list of the K-4's equipped with the long distance tender and images of them:

http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com/page2.php

As these will be the K-Line tooling K-4, did they tool up an all new tender or use the existing Lionel one?

I might have missed the information, but who said these would be made from K-Line tooling?

I might have missed the information, but who said these would be made from K-Line tooling?

Jim R. 

I am not sure anything in detail was said about which tooling it would be from. Economically it makes sense. And dimensionally I hope they use the locomotive from the K-line K4 tooling and not the larger K4 Lionel made in 2002.

Jim,

I think the assumption is that the same tooling used on the last run of K4s will be used for these engines.  That tooling was the old K-line tooling.  The original Lionel K4 tooling was too long, with the extra length in the firebox to hold a larger motor.  Using the K-Line tooling gave Lionel a more scale dimensioned engine, but with the smaller motor.

As far as the tender is concerned, here are some pics of photo's in Alvin Staufer's Pennsy Power III book (an excellent resource for Pennsy engines).  My pics are poor, and I'm not sure if I'll get in trouble, but here they are. 

This is the K4's tender:

Here is the M1's tender:

Keeping in mind the size difference between the K4 and M1, it still looks to me like the K4's tender is longer.

Lionel doesn't own the old K-Line tooling. Sanda Kan does, and Kader (the holding company that owns Sanda Kan, Bachmann, Williams and Graham Farish brands) pretty much booted Lionel and other manufacturers out of its production facilities years ago.

Lionel only retained a few select pieces that were used during the two-year period when it was licensed to market the K-Line by Lionel brand.

Again, Lionel didn't buy all of K-Line tooling. If it hasn't been used at this point, it isn't in Lionel's hands.

Ron,

Thanks for sharing. Really like the pinstripes on the top pictures. Wish Lionel would have made a rendition of that locomotive.

The first Legacy K4s were made from the old K-Line tooling.  It was well documented on here when they came out.  So is the 2-Truck Shay they produced.  The prototype Lionel showed of this new model at York was identical to the K-Line and original Legacy versions except that it had a 3D printed tender.

You guys may be right. The K-Line tooling features that flared section where the boiler makes the walkways. If that's what the previous Legacy model had, it was certainly from K-Line. 

Originally posted by JDaddy:

The previous TMCC release had too long of fire box... the proportions just looked a little odd.

as well as a squashed trailing truck!

Lionel at the rear, K-line in the front.

K-line

Lionel Odyssey

Brass Williams Trailing Truck[ Correct] vs. Lionel Odyssey Trailing truck [on loco]

K-line Tender[ rear] Lionel [Front]

K-line Tender[right] Lionel [left]

Word in from my LHS is they will be in next week!

Hmm... my money tree is getting picked thin.

Maybe MTH or Lionel will do a K4 run of 1737 as built in 1914.

I have Lionel K4's and M1 long haul tenders.  If Lionel makes this engine with Baldwin Disc drivers, then I'm in for one.  Something different and prototypical.