Lionel says Cannot be done??

Why is the title of the thread "Lionel Says Cannot Be Done" when the REAL statement that Lionel made (according to your post) is they "cannot give instructions"???

Perhaps you were not clear to Lionel?  Perhaps they didn't want to be responsible for you blowing your transformers?  Many, many issues.

Your thread title is misleading.

Peter Cazz posted:

Can the CW 80 and the 180 powerhouse be phased? Peter C.

I don't think they can. The powerhouse is pure sine wave and the CW80 is chopped sine wave. Phasing can only work with two pure sine wave transformers. Two identical chopped wave transformers could be phased but two different chopped wave transformers would only work if their outputs matched. Luck involved with the latter.

Your voltmeter is reading RMS voltage. If you had an oscilloscope and put both outputs on the screen and superimposed them you would see most of the time the voltage differs. Any differences means the higher voltage is trying to drive the transformer with lower voltage at that point in time.

Pete

This is an interesting conundrum. I am about to convert my track power from 4 LW's to 2 PH180's but intend to use an already existing LW and a KW for switch machine, signal, and accessory lighting. The KW and LW is phased with the 4 other LW's. Can they be phased with the PH180's?

Just to be clear on several points, is that first the pleasant lady on the phone said "it could not be done." She spoke about the Molex connector. I told her I bought their adaptor. Then she put me on hold and came back stating that the techs told her that they had no instructions on how to do it. Then put me on hold again saying that the techs do not advise to do it but with no explanation as to why. 

In the end they show in their own video a CW80 phasing with two other transformers but they do not say what the other two are. The one with just the single red and black terminals looks like the controller that comes with the 180 powerhouse as they can be bough separate or together. Maybe it's not?

I just kind of find it hard to believe that I'm the only one to ever try phasing these two most common transformers. I'm new here and I apologize if any thing was misleading as it was not my intention. As I said she ending saying she could not help and that was what the techs informed her of a response. I was just surprised at that.

I thought the phasing was a simple matter, and that I was doing something wrong. 

The other thing is why am I getting the voltage across the hot terminals without one of the transformers even plugged in, sine wave discussion apart? Is there some reason for this? Thank you. 

Are you saying you can measure voltage across the terminals with NEITHER of the two power supplies plugged in?  Or across the second one when only the first is plugged in?

Why are you trying to phase them at all?  You mention nothing about using a common nuetral (Ground for you DC people). You also say that you are using one transformer for "accessories" and one to run your trains.  You do not meet the criteria for needing to phase your transformers regardless of the type of sine wave put out.

Not not with neither plugged in. I'm new yes, crazy no. Just kidding of course. 

I 'm reading when only one is plugged in. With the neutrals connected together, with only the brick plugged in I read 18v across the hots. With the CW 80 only plugged in the reading varies of course with throttle. With both plugged in as you bring up CW 80 throttle it's green light blinks as a short.

All the posts I've read says that there should be little or no reading across reds/hots. How can be out of phase with only one plugged in? I'm missing something here, on several fronts. How can you phase a polarized plug and why out of phase if plugged into the same power strip with polarized sockets? Then it is not possible to phase the CW 80 and the powerhouse? 

Jim, First thank you for replying. I thought I needed to phase the transformers as I have the gateman activated by the train from the outside rail as it passes. The power for the gateman coming from the CW 80 as to not have the full 18v from the brick. That is exactly how Lionel shows and explains is necessary in their video for phasing.

Loose-Caboose posted:

Why are you trying to phase them at all?  You mention nothing about using a common nuetral (Ground for you DC people). You also say that you are using one transformer for "accessories" and one to run your trains.  You do not meet the criteria for needing to phase your transformers regardless of the type of sine wave put out.

BINGO.

Oddly enough, for the application you describe, they do not need to be phased, and can share a common return.

See this recent thread HERE to see how it worked out for another forum member.

Rob,

I thank you for your reply. So just to be ultra-clear, I can wire the 180 powerhouse directly to the DCS to supply full 18V to the track. Then I can wire the gateman with the neutral to the outside insulated track rail of the accessory activator track, ( which as the train passes through would actually be connected through the train axles, to the 180 brick through the DCS,) and the hot of the gateman to the red (A) and the neutral of the light of the gateman to the black (U) of the CW 80?

I have the light of the gateman hooked up to have the shed light on all the time from the CW 80. Can you confirm that this is all ok? A forum member above seemed to think that the wrong hook-up could blow the transformers.

Am I missing something here? If the share a common ground aren’t they phased?

The wiring of the rails for DCS other than the control rail is normal... that is, outside rails to the layout common on the TIU and center rail to the hot output from the TIU.

The rest is assuming you have a newer "G" date code or newer CW-80.

Wire the solenoid terminal from the gateman to the insulated control rail and the common terminal of the gateman to the voltage that you want to power it with - let's say one of the "A" posts(whichever you are using - lever control or programmable accessory).  Connect the bulb terminal to the "U" post. As it is now, when you set your accessory voltage, the light comes on, but the man stays in.

The circuit through the wheels/axles is completed to power the solenoid with the CW. The DCS track power has nothing to do with the circuit at all except for sharing a common return.

romiller49 posted:

Am I missing something here? If the share a common ground aren’t they phased?

Not necessarily. Maybe! Check out Marty's phasing page HERE for an explanation of why it's necessary to phase transformers for train control.

You can even share a common return with an isolated DC source - like a car battery.

Rob, What you have above is exactly what I thought should be and how I planned to wire. What you brought up to me is the G06 code on the CW 80. I will look to see where this code is and then code. Maybe that is the trouble?  I just can't understand why I'm getting a voltage reading with only one transformer plugged in and also with the two blacks ( Commons ) connected the CW 80 blinks as a short. I will get back to you on the code and again thank you so much.

The code is on the bottom, a G followed by. three date numbers 

Ok first thank you to all. On the bottom is G0309. What does this tell you?

The instruction in the manual say to wire the red to the middle rail and black to the outer. That is how I have always wired it. Even with the gateman on the accessory side of the CW and the track on throttle side. I'm guessing mine could be an older one? If so what are options or solutions?

You have the newer one. "U" posts are common, A & B are hot. Follow the diagram.

Here is one tip - don't use a meter to check voltages. You will get very misleading readings.

Rob,

Thank you again.

I will do and try with a non-power car like a plain box car to run across the accessory activator track for the gateman. I'm concerned that when I connect the common on the PH180 to the black (Common) on the CW and plug both in and throttle up the CW the CW light blinks as a short?

Make the connection at the track, not at the PH180. You want to keep the circuit isolated to the track & accessory area, not involving the TIU at all.  There may be a bleed through somewhere, but with nothing connected to the red posts of the CW that should not be happening.

In fairness to LIONEL, you should change the title of this post as several have mentioned.

rthomps posted:

Why is the title of the thread "Lionel Says Cannot Be Done" when the REAL statement that Lionel made (according to your post) is they "cannot give instructions"???

Perhaps you were not clear to Lionel?  Perhaps they didn't want to be responsible for you blowing your transformers?  Many, many issues.

Your thread title is misleading.

hokie71 posted:

In fairness to LIONEL, you should change the title of this post as several have mentioned.

Lionel has no clue how to instruct folks how to use their products? 

Huh...I wonder why the CW phasing date wasn't mentioned?  (easier to say "cant"  

Lionel can't provide info but Rob can?

Misleading?  ... Hardly; I pretty much read what I expected to

Including a happy ending without any Lionel corporate input

ADCX Rob posted:

Make the connection at the track, not at the PH180. You want to keep the circuit isolated to the track & accessory area, not involving the TIU at all.  There may be a bleed through somewhere, but with nothing connected to the red posts of the CW that should not be happening.

Rob, Again a big TY.

When I first tried the phasing, that started all of this, as per the Lionel video I had nothing connected to either transformer. I just simply attached a wire to the Black of the CW and to the neutral of the PH180. Then I saw on this forum that if you read volts across the two hots (reds) that that would mean to be out of phase. When I tried, it read 18V. with only the PH180 plugged in! Right there I thought I had a problem as in my mind hot to hot should read nothing. When I removed the plug on the PH180 and plugged in the CW the reading moved with the throttle. Then with both plugged in and ONLY the commons connected to each other, I turned on the PH180 plugged in the CW and the green light was solid, but the moment I raised the throttle the green CW light started blinking. Again with nothing connected other than the commons of the transformers together. I hope that is being very clear? My concern is why would that happen?

The CW works fine on the track with the gateman on the accessory side and the throttle to the Fixed 1 in on the TIU. I just simply wanted more track power, so thought to use the PH180 for just the track and CW for accessories.

My plan tonight is to try first and take the TIU out of the equation and connect the PH 180 directly to the terminal track. Then from the accessary terminals of the CW80 I will connect the one wire from the gateman to the red and the other to the black as per the diagram. Then the gateman solenoid wire to the insulated rail of the accessory activator track. I'll turn on the PH 180 first then plug in the CW and see what that brings. Then I'll try raising throttle slowly, even though nothing is attached to throttle side, just to see what that brings. Then I'll push a box car across the activator track and see what that brings. If that all works then I will re-attach the terminal track to the fixed 1 out of the TIU and connect the PH180 to the Fixed 1 input of the TIU, and repeat as above and try box car with all wired up.

Peter Cazz posted:

My plan tonight is to try first and take the TIU out of the equation and connect the PH 180 directly to the terminal track. Then from the accessary terminals of the CW80 I will connect the one wire from the gateman to the red and the other to the black as per the diagram. Then the gateman solenoid wire to the insulated rail of the accessory activator track. I'll turn on the PH 180 first then plug in the CW and see what that brings. Then I'll try raising throttle slowly, even though nothing is attached to throttle side, just to see what that brings. Then I'll push a box car across the activator track and see what that brings. If that all works then I will re-attach the terminal track to the fixed 1 out of the TIU and connect the PH180 to the Fixed 1 input of the TIU, and repeat as above and try box car with all wired up.

This won't work either. If you want to use the insulated track section to activate the accessory you can only use track power. If you want to use the CW 80 to power the accessory you have to use something like a 153 activator. Post war types used contacts placed under the track. New electronic ones use optics to detect the presence of something on the tracks. There are a few third party solutions like Z Stuff to sense trains. A contactor of this type isolates track power from accessory power.

Pete

Norton posted:

Peter Cazz posted:

My plan tonight is to try first and take the TIU out of the equation and connect the PH 180 directly to the terminal track. Then from the accessary terminals of the CW80 I will connect the one wire from the gateman to the red and the other to the black as per the diagram. Then the gateman solenoid wire to the insulated rail of the accessory activator track. I'll turn on the PH 180 first then plug in the CW and see what that brings. Then I'll try raising throttle slowly, even though nothing is attached to throttle side, just to see what that brings. Then I'll push a box car across the activator track and see what that brings. If that all works then I will re-attach the terminal track to the fixed 1 out of the TIU and connect the PH180 to the Fixed 1 input of the TIU, and repeat as above and try box car with all wired up.

This won't work either. If you want to use the insulated track section to activate the accessory you can only use track power. If you want to use the CW 80 to power the accessory you have to use something like a 153 activator. Post war types used contacts placed under the track. New electronic ones use optics to detect the presence of something on the tracks. There are a few third party solutions like Z Stuff to sense trains. A contactor of this type isolates track power from accessory power.

Pete

My whole understanding is that you are NOT using track power to activate the accessory?? Only the Neutral comes from the track and the hot from another power supply. I'm I wrong? Using just the CW 80 now I'm not using the track power terminals to power the gateman. The gateman is connected to the accessory terminals of the CW 80 and it gets the neutral from the outer rail of the insulated section when the trains crosses.

What is a "TY"? There is no previous statement to draw from. I suspect it is "common" elsewhere, like texting, FB, twitter, etc.. but not being a social media butterfly,  I've not seen this before anywhere and have no clue what it means.

I think it's 'Thank You'... I just added to the list linked in my signature line below. Many here (me included) had trouble with these so everyone submitted what they knew and I made a list. Rich helped with the formatting and I have been following that formatting since then. 

FWIW, when discussions like these come up, a simple drawing of the existing or proposed electrical layout would go a long way to clarify the situation. 

Dave

Peter Cazz posted:

ADCX Rob posted:

Make the connection at the track, not at the PH180. You want to keep the circuit isolated to the track & accessory area, not involving the TIU at all.  There may be a bleed through somewhere, but with nothing connected to the red posts of the CW that should not be happening.

Rob, Again a big TY.

You're welcome.

I hope you can get this working with all of the "distance" advice.  The insulated rail scheme is a much cleaner method for accessory activation than pressure switches, and there are no electronics to fail.

I may be way off here, but it sounds like what you are trying to do is use the CW-80 to control/harness the power of the 180 brick.

IMHO, the lady at Lionel is correct - it cannot be done.

Lionel produced the GW-180 to be able to do that. Although it looks cosmetically exactly like the CW-80 with just the addition of a plug on the back, my understanding is that the board and other internal components were also changed to handle the additional power (and possibly sine wave) of the 180 brick and that simply connecting the 180 brick to a CW-80 will not work properly.

Dtrainmaster posted:

FWIW, when discussions like these come up, a simple drawing of the existing or proposed electrical layout would go a long way to clarify the situation. 

Dave

That is why techs more often use schematics vs descriptive text; it simplifies it.  It need not be a photoshopped or app drawn one, a photo of a line drawing works well  (sorry about bold, composer is throwing fits today)

Richie C. posted:

I may be way off here, but it sounds like what you are trying to do is use the CW-80 to control/harness the power of the 180 brick.

 Not even close. He just wants to use the CW to power track activated accessories and preserve the full output of the 180 brick to run his DCS controlled trains on the track.

Richie C. posted:

IMHO, the lady at Lionel is correct - it cannot be done.

 We weren't privy to the conversation, but the "lady at Lionel" would have been rather reluctant on giving any instruction where MTH DCS gear is being interspersed with Lionel equipment.

I was wise enough to never mention to Lionel about the MTH DCS in the system. I had just simply asked about phasing the PH180 and CW 80. Which was all I asked of Lionel to answer. Yes, as Rob stated, I only want to use the PH180 for track power and the CW80 for accessories, but with the gateman through the Fastrack Accessory Activator track section. 

All is working and reconnected to the DCS and all working perfect together.

Ok so Rob, you put me in the right direction. I wired everything as your diagram which as I stated was exactly how I read, and thought it should be. The ONLY exception was that all the posts, videos and readings stated that the Neutrals ( Blacks ) on the transformers should be wired together to make that " Common ground. " I wired all as the diagram that Rob posted. Powered up the transformers one at a time, with no blinking, no shorts. Turning on the PH180 put power to the track, then turning on the CW80 the gateman light went on, and man was inside, BUT, when I pushed a car into the accessory activator section no man appeared. Just nothing. Well at least no short I said. LOL.

My thoughts were that the hot was there to both the track and the gateman as I could run a train fine and the gateman shed light was on, so I figured there was no common getting to the gateman from the track rail. In short meaning, no common ground. The only thing I thought to try was to connect that missing wire, ( as referenced above ) from one transformer to the other. Changing nothing from Rob's diagram. I just additionally attached a wire from the PH180 neutral to the black (U) terminal on the track power side of the CW 80. I honestly though that doing this was going to make the CW 80 blink shorting again as soon as I turned it on, but it did not! With this wire between the two transformer blacks connected there was still no short with both on, and then when I pushed the car across the Activator section the gateman came out and all worked as it should. Track getting power from the PH180 and all the accessories including the gateman from the CW 80. 

So, the wire from black to black or Neutral to Neutral ( U ), however you want to refer to it, seems to be needed between both transformers obtain a common ground to have the Accessory Activation track make the accessory work.

I wish to conclude and be definitive and hopefully clear:

1. Yes you can indeed use the PH180 to just power the track and then use the CW 80 to power accessories and in conjunction with the Accessory Activator track ( Fastrack Piece ) to activate an accessory, BUT there needs to be a wire connecting the neutrals ( Blacks ) of both the transformers.
2. Yes, it will work using the Power from the CW 80 to power an accessory through the insulated Accessory Activation track. Nothing else is needed for this scenario just as Rob stated. Just to repeat, it needs the additional wire connecting both transformer neutrals ( Blacks) together.
3. Remember the PH 180 6-22983 has a Molex connector. You can cut off and put wire connectors or use the bare wires to attach however you choose, Lock-on or whatever, or make your own Molex from parts, or you can buy, as I did, part 6-14194 which has the female Molex to mate, then spade connectors which I used to attach to the DCS.

Now also to be very clear on the title of this post: I was indeed told it could not be done by Lionel FIRST OFF. It was ONLY after politely insisting that there had to be someone in tech that could help me with two of their most popular transformers, that I was then put on hold, multiple times, with the final reply being they could not give instruction on how to do it, and also saying "to try to get another transformer."  Which I again politely questioned, and then was told " I have to go because others are calling in, and the phone queue was backing up."  Humm, not even to recommend just what that other transformer could be! Oh yes, there was one recommendation. That I could email my question to talktous@lionel.com or something like that. I own a family business running since 1948 and if I gave new clients who bought our products an answer like that, we would not be in business this long. In all fairness I was not misleading in any way nor did I mean to be. Customer support was low at best, in all fairness. The DCS never entered the conversation as it was irrelevant to the phasing question. Adriatic you were spot on in your assessment. Thanks for the support. 

I wish to contribute to this forum to the best of my limited ability. If anyone has questions or would like a diagram I will be happy to make it up and send or post.

I want to thank all that gave constructive assistance and especially Rob, and hope that this post helps anyone thinking to try this way to power their layout. The CW 80 alone I think can handle a reasonable number of lights/accessories, and the PH 180 should handle 4-5 trains without issue. The CW80 came with a NY Central Flyer starter set and I bought the PH180 from ModelTrainstuff.com last week for 81.94 including shipping. I saw though they just raised it this week. I think this would work for a small to med-size layout for a minimal outlay of $$.

Bottom line: It can be done and works perfect. Thanks again Rob.

Some folks are too protective of the beloved Lionel name. Not that I don't want it to be also, but MY Lionel died in the 60's.  I call things as I see them; thank yourself for not folding when you knew you were right.   Except for a few friendly names, my own contact with Lionel as an adult has had a similar flavor to yours fyi.  Shifting blame and NO! followed by a refusal to deal with a now upset customer are the new age customer service weapons imo, and it doesn't fly with me.  I' m glad to hear you attempt to be bigger than that in your own endeavor.

I'm gladder you're up and running

The reason you need the common/N  wire is transformers are actually isolated from direct contact with your home ac nuetral  (simplified version and assumes you made an assumption they would be somehow connected that way since the phasing is related to ac plugs. [it can be quite a puzzle when you take into account over the years U isnt always common, the varible leg changes; etc etc.  You will catch on if you wish to, don't rush it, just pace yourself and ask questions. More often than not, the modern breaker will keep you safe, though they can be a PITA too as they can work too well at times I actually use my one new age power supply as a diagnostic tool at times too]

 Yea; I also had to ask what pita was too  I only knew it was more than just an alternative sandwich bread 

If your running command/dcs engines all the time with 18 volts, there' no reason to use anything but track power for your gateman.  If you were using convential power then ok maybe.

Dmaxdeere87 posted:

If your running command/dcs engines all the time with 18 volts, there' no reason to use anything but track power for your gateman.  If you were using convential power then ok maybe.

I am running Command/DCS all the time or mostly plan to. But everywhere ( on this forum and Lionel and MTH ) it is NOT recommended to power accessories with full 18V and you have no control over the accessory. This also allows me the option to run conventional later should I choose. At 18V the gateman comes flying out and the solenoid is so loud. I did not want for the little man to throw hard and lose his Diamond on my 50th Anniversary Gateman. LOL